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 Removed Monograms
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| Author | Topic: Removed Monograms |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 10-25-1999 09:52 PM
  
What is the general consensus on removal of monograms from silver? Personally, I consider silver from which intitials have been removed to be defaced, and I will not buy it. Unfortunately, there are plenty of pieces on the market that have already had their intitials removed or replaced. Am I in the minority? How do other people feel about this practice? I know it still occurs, but is it as prevalent as it used to be? IP: Logged |
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Jeff Herman Posts: 20 |
posted 10-25-1999 11:25 PM
As a silversmith and silver conservationist, I'm a strong believer that monograms should remain intact. Having made this statement, I must admit that, at this posting, I am removing monograms from a large set of flatware for an antique dealer. I know that if I don't remove the monograms, he will send the set to someone else, possibly someone who will destroy the flatware all together. If a set of flatware comes in with truly outstanding and unusual engraving, I will refuse to remove it. I know I will receive flack from those purists out there, but let me ask this: If a dealer is bent on having the engraving removed, wouldn't you feel more comfortable knowing that it's being "mothered" by a silversmith who is renowned for his pride in craftsmanship? ------------------ IP: Logged |
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TGS Posts: 31 |
posted 10-26-1999 04:57 PM
I would like to expand this discussion a little. Antique people in general subscribe to the "no chip no flaw" principle...they drastically downgrade the value of a piece if it is not pristine a la Antique Roadshow. In the case of silverware, much of which was intended to be used daily, is the devaluation for flaws just as extreme? I know only about eBay coin silver and most, if not all of it, is flawed to say nothing about the monogram being removed. So am I buying a bunch of junk? IP: Logged |
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FredZ Posts: 1070 |
posted 10-26-1999 06:44 PM
When I purchase an item for my collection as research to further my understanding of silversmithing, I look at the scratches as a part of the patina . I recently purchased a A&C bowl made in 1906 that was dinged and bent with plenty of time worn abrasions that showed it's use. I will spend a great deal of time to assure that, when I remove the dents and reshape it to it's original form, it will retain the scratches and that special luster that cannot be easily reproduced. I am equally careful when I straighten out the bowl of a spoon or the handle to keep it in style of when it was made. I do not remove owners initials. On the other hand I just purchased 12 demitasse spoons made by Manchester Silver in a modern style and have no qualm about transforming them into baby spoons to send to relatives and friends.... they will retain the original Manchester mark along with my mark as someone who has decorated altered it. I removed a machine cut monogram in the process and have no guilt whatsoever. I use what I collect and have a reverence for how it was made when it involved craftsmanship. I would never even consider altering the collection of 18th century spoons I have gathered. IP: Logged |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 10-26-1999 10:25 PM
To reply to TGS, all collectors must decide for themselves what is acceptable. With coin silver I draw the line at cracks, removed monograms, machine buffing and repairs. That said, some pieces are important enough historically to buy even with major flaws, and anything old for less than a dollar is always worth buying. I am not concerned with honest wear, like dented spoon bowls, bent shafts or worn engraving. I won't pay a premium for pieces with lots of wear, but I am happy to have them in my collection. John Luddington's book Starting to Collect Silver is a great introduction to the evaluation of silver objects. Unfortunately, he uses a top-down method like you describe. He starts with the assumption that a piece should be perfect (i.e. great patina AND crisp engraving), and subtracts value from there. I think that it is far better to assume that all silver will show some wear and damage, and add a bonus value if a piece is pristine. Besides, insistence on perfection in antiques often leads to fakery. Coin silver is never junk, at least not to me. It is part of American history, and I would rather have 100 $5 coin teapoons than one $500 bean bag. Coin spoons may be low priced now, but that's what makes them fun to collect. IP: Logged |
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Bob Schulhof Posts: 194 |
posted 10-29-1999 01:00 AM
We collect Victorian era flatware, and prefer the ones with mono's. We will not buy a piece that has signs of removal and we have sent some back. The pattern matchers such as replacements offer a generous discount for monogrammed pieces but will pay the same for non mono as "monogrammed easily removed" which tells you something about their policies. Silverwarehouse does not give discounts for mono's but when I order anything I have to admonish them not to remove the mono or I will send it back. Antique Cupboard has the most integrity. They offer mono and non mono pieces with no price difference. In the world of Gorham when the same pattern could be made last year or last century the beautiful old mono's are often a key to dating a genuine antique. IP: Logged |
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TGS Posts: 31 |
posted 11-03-1999 01:14 PM
Thanks to all who responded to my comment. I feel better about my purchases so far. I've been trying to use good judgment in my purchases but was beginning to be concerned whether I was right or not. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 11-22-2004 02:06 AM
I agree with the others. In most cases with the older silver, I prefer for it to have a Monogram. Especially the old Georgian and early American silver, the monogram or crest is usually the only decoration there. I won't buy a piece with a mono removal for my collection at any price. asheland [This message has been edited by asheland (edited 10-28-2005).] IP: Logged |
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mflower Posts: 17 |
posted 11-22-2004 11:50 AM
Hello...found the above discussion really interesting...as I've just acquired 5 beautiful coin silver spoons..I LOVE them! Four initials engraved in the handle, which I find fascinating. The lustre is just beautiful...I usually resell, but even with baby teeth marks in the bowls...(not too bad) I'm thinking of keeping these..they have been judged on another topic board about mid 1800's...and I'm thrilled...I'm new to collecting silver, as where I 'shop' it's not too available. This was a lucky stop by the side of the road. Does anyone know why four would be engraved on them? Thanks all...learning a lot fast! Wonderful site! ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 11-24-2004 12:23 AM
One of the difficulties of silver dealing is the large number of potential customers who have this idea that the piece should be both old and like new. Monograms are a part of the history of silver. Yet, for many buyers they detract. Which I have never understood. Many times I have had people reject pieces with their own monograms. Makes no sense to me. Which is one of the reasons I really have burned out on shows. Four initials could indicate a much married woman. IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 11-24-2004 08:39 AM
I would not have much problem with machine engraved monogram removal, but people need to be educated to the fact that a hand engraved monogram is an art form in itself. Think of an early 20c building that was decorated with Pewabic tile and someone comes in and strips the tile out - same thing. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 11-24-2004 09:15 AM
Why 4 initials? Some reasons might be: the woman could have had two middle names which is not especially uncommon; or she used her maiden name as a second middle name; or she hyphenated her maiden name with her husband's name; or her husband's last name had two parts such as Van Dyke or Saint Laurent or Mac Donald or de Gaulle, etc. IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 11-26-2004 01:45 PM
Could I throw in a vote for mono removal, more to make a point about good workmanship than to advocate removal. If an old piece of silver is bought to be used and one "needs" to have their initials, and the thickness of the silver is suficient, then an experienced smith given the time, i.e. paid not to rush, can remove a mono without the tell tale signs of a bad job... dips, scores, wear on the surounding designs, etc. It is more upsetting to see a job done by somebody who does not know they are doing a bad job or in a rush for cheap pay and have a great piece ruined. IP: Logged |
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t-man-nc Posts: 327 |
posted 11-27-2004 11:49 PM
OK... To try to offer another opinion of what "Might be" for the four initials... 2 for the bride and maybe 2 for the groom...??? I collect in a fairly eclectic area, my wife swears anything made of or related to silver and she is sort of... well its true... If it is silver I will most likely try to purchase at least an exemplary piece. I have a fair collection of the Alvin Patterns, as well as quite a number of souvenir spoons, and my real passion is Coin... I do however manage to capture a bit of UK and European Pieces every now and again, not to mention Antique Tools, Books, Newspaper and Magazine Articles, Trade Cards, and Catalogs, biographies and photographs or pictures or paintings generally to try to catch up with a form of art that I myself do not the talent poses and thereby in some fashion participate even if only as a humble collector As for removal... I collect for the beauty of the piece, with all of the inherent blemishes acquired over the years and therefore only allow actions to be taken on pieces in my (temporary) custody, that would prevent any further harm ... My philosophy is to collect historical artifacts, and that would define the principal to accept the articles as found... to enhance or modify something of antiquity would diminish or deface the article that the historian / collector would by definition, seek to find, not to alter or eliminate what you seek. This does not speak to restoration of materials in an effort to stop or slow environmental destruction.... I personally think that a great deal, of the engravings, on a number of articles of silver are grand indeed, and that they are an art form in their own right and if possible preserved. On the other hand, some people want to complete a set of silver with their own initials or crest or whatever, and to these folks I say enjoy your silver, complete your service and best wishes... For the dealer... ah therein lies the rub, to what activity do you personally subscribe... is money your motivating factor... if so, then purchase the stock, and grind then into piles of dust if the customer pays you to... it is your profession, and your livelihood to provide these activities for the customer and they are always right.... but, if we forget our obligation to provide informed suggestions to our customer, to help guide to them to a more noble understanding of what they posses, then they are not being served and therefore they are being cheated by us the merchant... All that said, each of us needs to decide what or motivation is and follow it, and we should all respect the rights of others to make the choices that, by time, circumstances or other considerations are sometimes forced to make and accept. Just ramblings from an old silverphile...
IP: Logged |
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Cheryl and Richard Posts: 154 |
posted 12-02-2004 03:28 PM
Re: four initials: When my parents were married, in 1935, mom hyphenated her first and middle name, and her silver was monogrammed ELPD. -Richard IP: Logged |
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