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tline3open  new method of monogram removal?

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Author Topic:   new method of monogram removal?
vathek

Posts: 966
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 03-08-2007 07:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
While browsing some site or other one of the sellers mentioned that monograms could be removed by fluxing silver into the old mono then buffing it out. Is this plausible? I would think 'huffing' on it will still show the old mono.

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FredZ

Posts: 1070
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 03-08-2007 10:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FredZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When you say fluxing do you mean soldering? Soldering would leave a shadow. I suspect the monogram could be filled in with a laser weld and then refinished. I am not a believer in monogram removal so I do not see the point of spending the money to do so.

Fred

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agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 03-08-2007 11:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think Fred is right, there would be a shadow. It could be silver plated but that is temporary and more importantly once soldering has been done the hardness, especially in flatware would be gone.

I also do not like mono removal mostly because it is done badly or at the long term expence of the object, too thin etc.

There are times where it is OK and a laser weld would be ideal. Thank you Fred, as I had not thought to do it, but have repaired spoons and other objects that could not be soldered (a mixed metal hammered sugar bowl with fire scale where the aplied decoration had come off). It would be expensive because on the scale of mono removal it would take a fair bit of time. On a great object that would come back to life without a mono or without thin spots and holes it would be ideal.

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 03-08-2007 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd like to put the case for the defence of the monogram.
If the silver has any historic or artistic merit, the monogram, original or later is part of it's history. If it was there by order of the original owner, to my mind it ADDS to the value. Removal, which ruins patination , and any historic value is, IMHO, desecration.

If the silver has no historic or artistic merit, and only has value for useage, the perhaps there is some excuse for removal. But how do we know what in the future will be regarded as merit !. My father spent many years making furniture out of old, worthless timber. From 18th century longcase clocks - the movements discarded - from Edwardian tables- valueless in the 1950's - etc. His father broke up unfashionable genuine Sheraton furniture. The Victorians scrapped Chippendale chairs .I have scrapped Victorian silver regarded as of very little merit forty years ago. (Much of it still junk in my rather arrogant view !)
If it's not of any merit now, or in the foreseeabe future - why even bother to spend money on the piece anyhow .

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vathek

Posts: 966
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 03-08-2007 02:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think the claim was you could then put in a new mono without losing any silver. I wouldn't do it in any case since I have no problems with monograms. I don't recall if it was silver solder or how they did it, only that the old mono could be filled with silver somehow and re-mono'd.

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argentum1

Posts: 602
Registered: Apr 2004

iconnumber posted 03-08-2007 08:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Any addition of silver to the object would have to be done with a silver alloy of a lower melting point than the object. This would leave an area different in color. As was said before this would also leave the metal softer.

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FWG

Posts: 845
Registered: Aug 2005

iconnumber posted 03-09-2007 09:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Any addition of silver to the object would have to be done with a silver alloy of a lower melting point than the object.

Not with laser-welding, as mentioned above. That in theory matches the original metal (although I don't know that they have silver of alloys other than sterling), using a laser to melt the new metal and fuse it into the old. I suspect there would still be a subtle shadow if used for monogram removal, but if that were then engraved over it might be very hard to see.

I have a couple of pieces I've been meaning to take in for laser repair as test cases, but haven't had a chance to do so yet. Will report here when I can....

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argentum1

Posts: 602
Registered: Apr 2004

iconnumber posted 03-09-2007 09:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This

is a pair of sugar tongs that I had laser wielded this past year. There is a post about these someplace.

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agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 03-09-2007 10:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Argentum,

Your tongs were the reason I started laser welding! They were repaired by a very nice jeweler near Albany,NY (you gave me his name) who kindly gave me a demo. He also explained that the tongs were too big to only weld, so what you see in your image is solder that he finished the job with after using the welder to tack the two pieces together. The welder is great for lining up two pieces accurately because you can hold them in your hands and make the first weld, which is tiny and if it is right keep going and if wrong break it and try again.

It was then touched up with a graver (very well).

So this is not what a laser weld looks like. I will try to post some images of spoons that have been done with a laser.

There is not a color difference and if done well, i.e. no pits and polished to blend in with the surrounding area. A laser weld is hard to see because the filler metal is the same as the body. When welding a coin spoon I will cut a fine wire with snips off of an old broken coin spoon to use as the welding rod. Like wise sterling for sterling.

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 03-10-2007 01:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The way I have seen this done is to make a wax negative of the monogram. Then cast the monogram in silver. It is then inserted into the existing script. Heat is involved. The result is then buffed over. Does this explanation make any sense?

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agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 03-10-2007 07:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That is a new one for me. It is hard to picture at the size of engraving, meaning to cast something that thin, then with shinkage fit and solder it into the lines of the engraving (let alone issues of a curved or flat surface), then file and polish to the surface level and end up with a smaller, but apparent, shadow of solder... It sounds like a lot of work for an ify result.

Dale I may not have the right idea and you might be thinking of when a smith cuts out the mono and lets in apiece of sheet silver that is gently hammered to strech it into the hole for a good fit and then solders it. This is the usual way of fixing a mono removal on holloware that has gotten too thin.

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vathek

Posts: 966
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 04-22-2007 03:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I found the original quote quite by accident so I thought I'd post it:
    "DON'T WANT THE INSCRIPTION ?

    Inscriptions can be removed if required . This is achieved by floating silver into the inscription and then polishing the whole to a very high standard. There will be no sign of the previous inscription and the silver will be as thick as when new. The trophy can then be inscribed to suit your own requirements or left blank. "

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