posted 02-19-2008 10:11 PM            

Hello,

I recently purchased some pieces of flatware (Gorham Chantilly, older pieces) and the gilding has been rubbed off and was wondering if it was possible/advisable/cost prohibitive to have them re-gilded? Has anyone had any pieces re-gilded or know where I might find a person or company that undertakes this type of repair?

Thanks

Robert

posted 02-20-2008 10:49 AM            

Here's the situation: we have a sterling cigarette box made by Tiffany that has a glass inset on the cover under which is a needlepoint piece. It's a family piece, and when it was given to us, I assumed it had started to tarnish in some weird way -- some of the silver was yellowed in some areas. But when I opened it, I found the inside cover was gilded.

So the dilemma: regild the whole thing, which would probably require removing the needlepoint (not obvious how to do this)-- and might be problematic anyway with the wooden cigarette box interior (I'm assuming regilding involves dipping). Or remove the remaining gold on the exterior? The exterior gold is very thin -- not that deep bright yellow color -- and I suspect that someone was diligently trying to polish away the 'tarnish' for many years.

posted 02-20-2008 06:25 PM            

I have never had anything gilded and do not know how expensive it would be. Nevertheless I think that I would at least take the item to a silversmith and find out the cost.

posted 02-20-2008 07:30 PM            

I guess it's time I took the plunge and try to upload a photo! Just opened a [hosting] account, so I hope this works. (Instead of digging out my camera, I've scanned the top of the box.)

posted 02-21-2008 01:13 PM            

Gold plating is where you use an electrical setup and some fluid and a chunk of gold and dipping the object in the fluid with the piece of gold you pass an electical current through the setup and the atoms of gold go from the chunk of gold through the fluid and get deposited on your object. The longer you run the process, the more gold plating you get.

Another method is vapor deposition but that is getting complicated and you wind up coating the object rather than plating it.

If you want to gold plate your box, you would want someone who can do the electro-plating method. It is not cheap, not just because of the price of gold but also because of the work involved. For example the object has to be fully cleaned and polished to a mirror finish since the least imperfection in the object will show up in the gold plating.

posted 02-21-2008 05:50 PM            

First, Chase, yes you can have your flatware re-gilded. There are a few things to think about...

Is the gilding electro plated or fire gilded? I assume the former (most things made after 1850ish were plated. I throw this in here because some one might read this and have a 1820 Georgian sugar bowl with lovely fire gilding, a little worn and it would be a shame to plate over it).

Now if you want to re-gild old plated gilding and have it look nice the old gilding has to be removed. There are two ways... polish it off or reverse plate, i.e. put it in the tank and reverse the current and pull off the old gold. Only a good plater should do this and he might tell you to polish anyway, because it will still need a little polishing after.

That raises a little consideration of will you be happy with a bright looking i.e. no scratches in the bowl where it is gilded... I think for not very old or non- museum silver for daily use this is fine and they will blend in a very short time and look much better than now.

Lastly a quick discussion of "color". The color of the new gold verses the old. When I started 35 years ago my Plater/Polishers could give me a choice of gold's - antique yellow, bright yellow, lemon, red, green.... I kid you not; he had buckets mixed for the different gold's. Now I can only get one color, it is fine and looks well compared to old golds.

Again I think you will be happy, but if you are picky or are trying to match you may find it subtly different.

OK who's still with me?
We can tackle Seaducks very nice box, especially nice because of the more than sentimental needlepoint, my mother did this and I have Alice, the Queen of hearts and friends under glass on a table.

Dale is spot on to ask the lacquer question. I am assuming gilding (plated) and I think I know why? Needlepoint and water do not go together. Gilding wears and once worn through the silver tarnishes and you now have to polish.

So should this be re-gilded? I really am not sure for two reasons. The first is that unless the needlepoint can be removed without harm there is no discussion. A GOOD silversmith may be able to. I tend to think unless the maker (and Gorham might have) planed for this, chances are it will be hard to get out without slight damage to the box. If you decide to gild it show it to that smith and get their opinion.

Second for the reasons that were mentioned above if you want to re-gild or just remove the gilding it will change the surface of the box to a brighter scratch free look.

If you do decide you would rather have it look "good" (read less scruffy) there is nothing wrong with that. There are those here who I think would say leave it, live with it, carefully polish it once and a while and in another 50 years most of the gilding will be gone but it will have this great surface...

Lastly, cost. Spoon bowls should be affordable... what does that mean with the price of gold at $900+? Typical gilding is put on in microns and a cheap job 2 -3 microns rubs off with your thumb. A good job should be 10 - 15 microns up to 20. That is probably $1 -$5 dollars of gold (just guessing) but the labor is where they get you today. So for a spoon its still not bad (?), but for Seaduck's box there is a lot more surface area (how they estimate cost of gold) and it could be a tricky job labor wise.

I hope that this was helpful, please ask any questions if I have not been clear and good luck to you both.

posted 02-21-2008 10:27 PM            

And I am so glad that I posted this little box, because I really had no clue as to the potential problems of replating it. Your rationale as to why it might have been gold plated -- I understood you to mean that the water involved in most silver polishing might have created problems for the needlepoint -- makes sense. Tho' there is always the chance that it was a decorative decision -- perhaps Gorham made these with gold and silver finishes for whatever would best match the needlework.

The price of gold is indeed over the top, but I think we've all been around long to see how these things cycle. We've had the box for a while and will have it for a longer while, so I had figured I might 'make my move' when gold got 'cheap' again.

Dale --I am definitely going to try the lacquer test. Tho', come to think of it, would gold plating have been lacquered? Would it have been expected to tarnish?

posted 02-22-2008 10:02 AM            

I haven't made anything for many years - was never better than a good student - and the kinds of repairs I do myself have not led me to further investigate the newer plating systems, but I have been very curious....

posted 02-22-2008 12:15 PM            

When I go to the plating firm just outside Boston that I have used for 25 years I know that it is 15-20 microns, it won't wear (no one has brought back a cup with worn gilding), the tanks they use to prep (degrease, reverse plate etc.) make the gilding "right". The only draw back is they only do one color because the scale and amount (cost) of gold plating. That to me is no big deal as the only time I might want another color is to match an antique and to date that has not come up.

So yes for small objects that may get little wear the new plating solutions are great and maybe brighter minds than mine are doing some high quality plating with small set ups. My only other reservation is about the chemicals used. In the big shops the amount of safety systems, closed loops, recycled waste water etc. mean that I am nervous about proper handling in small shops, my own included, so I stay away from all but the basic chemicals myself.

posted 02-22-2008 04:56 PM            

Is there always a mark (as indication) at silver work when it is also gilded?.

posted 02-23-2008 01:06 PM            

It is so hard to judge, both experience of the smith and what the actual problem was. As I said I am not the expert in this department so I too am just guessing. It is a pity that all the pieces were ruined, better if he had done a little experimenting on one first.

P.S. Thank you Polly!

posted 02-23-2008 02:20 PM            

Thanks for information, only I found it rear that it isn't used or will be used. A indication(mark)for a silver/ed object is marked, silvered objects has their indication by for instance 84 Christoffle etc.

The figures 90 or 150 etc. used by some factories, but when you will let re-gild your flatware where is the control for quality of gilding in a process used with 14,18 or 24 karat gold like FWG told before, used in micron mm. Is the price the same or is it more expensive to re-silver the object. I find it strange that their were, or never will be a control about that. The more expensive and older pieces are gilded inside but when I read all the reactions till now I think it's difficult to recognize it to be sure for 100%.

Why are they give a indication for instance with pewter objects and give percentages in %. There is no control for to guild your silver and knowing it's done like you aspect?

It shines like silver!

But thanks for your reaction!

posted 02-23-2008 10:50 PM            

Yesterday I tried Dale's suggestion of using nail polish remover to remove laquer from the gold plated portions of a brass candlestick. While shinier, I wish I hadn't done that because all the flaws -- spots and overpolished areas -- were not improved and might even worsen now?

I never liked the look of the thin, worn gilding on some of my spoons. I thought someday I would get around to polishing it all off. Now, because of this thread, I will just leave it alone.

I have learned a lot about silver at this site and want to say thank you.

posted 02-24-2008 06:28 PM            

It's not lacquer.

I diligently rubbed in a small corner at the side. And while it seemed slightly brighter, I think that was just from the cleaning effect. The color did not change.

I looked more carefully at the surface, which in fact has lots of scratches as if polished with a heavy cloth, as well as a sort of very tiny surface pitting. It's most obvious on the goldplating -- you can see that on the top edge of the detail photo --but it also seems to be present in the area where the silver has been exposed. Any clues what would cause that? Cigarette smoke? (It is, after all, a cigarette box, and its original owners were heavy smokers.)

In any case, I really appreciate all your good thoughts and advice on this. I can live with imperfection. It's very good for the character.

posted 02-24-2008 08:02 PM            

Moving beyond lacquer, there are many other coverings. Amateurs always seemed oddly fond of acrylic floor wax. And then there is the caterers' solution: heat applied to shrink wrap plastic wrap. That one is a real mess.

What sort of heat did they have? Open gas flame heaters, as used in warmer regions, are very hard on silver. As is sea air, which can result in pitting just from dew.