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 unmarked pieces - how common ?
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| Author | Topic: unmarked pieces - how common ? |
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cbc58 Posts: 333 |
posted 08-09-2008 03:42 PM
  
How common are unmarked pieces? I am buying a coffee pot that the seller says is Scottish coin silver but it has no markings on it whatsoever. Is this common or even probable? New to silver collecting... Thanks. IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 08-09-2008 04:07 PM
Hello! Ask questions first before you buy something you know nothing about. The first question I would ask is what is their return policy. If they are not willing to refund your money if you find out it is not what they say it is, I would not buy it. I would want it in writing as to what they say it is, the history of the piece etc. Is it sterling or silverplate? Have they had it tested? Because it came from someone in Scotland, on its own means nothing. Most quality makers will hallmark their work. Jersey IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 08-10-2008 08:34 AM
Unmarked pieces are not common but they do appear on a fairly regular basis. If someone wants to sell an unmarked item I would suggest that you know what you are buying. Verbal statements have no value and written statements are not worth much more as legal costs often exceed the value of the item. Most dealers are honest people and their livihood depends on that honesty. Misattributions can be made by anyone so buy only if you are certain of the item or you have an adventurous soul. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 08-10-2008 03:48 PM
Is the seller a silver dealer? If so ask why he attributes this pot to Scotland. And get a good reason. Coin silver is almost always an American term: it is not used much outside the US. Ask if he/she can verify the existance of Scottish coin silver. I personally have never heard of any such thing. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 08-11-2008 10:21 AM
Anything is possible, but what you describe sounds quite unlikely. Great Britain has some of the longest standing and most rigidly enforced silver marking requirements of any country. Their markings are where we get the term Hallmark. Silver is marked by assay offices around the country according to strict testing standards. Anytime you see something silver-like from England, Scotland or Ireland that is not correctly hallmarked unless it is so tiny there is no room for a hallmark, or unless it was a black market thing where the maker was trying to skirt the requirement to pay the duty on it and risk their hard earned livelihood in the process, you really should expect it to be silver plated and not solid silver. If the seller says they know it is silver because it 'feels or looks like silver' or 'because they had it tested' then you should not believe them until you have it tested by your own expert who is either an experienced silversmith or jeweler and who does not rely just on simple acid testing procedures (at the least they need to do an accurate specific gravity test). And as Dale said, the term coin silver is an American one that has its origins in the early 1800s before large deposits of silver were discovered in the West in the 1870s and when silversmiths often needed to melt down old silver objects including coins on occasion to get the raw stock to make new objects. It makes little sense to use the term in relation to Scottish silver. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 08-11-2008).] IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 08-11-2008 11:44 AM
I agree with what has been said so far. But, isn't there always a but, most young collectors and a lot of older ones simply do not know that much about silver terms. I perfer the term 'Early American silver' versus coin silver for a few reasons. Input 'coin silver' into a computer and out comes topics about 'coins' made of silver and somke silver items. Coin silver implies items made from coins but that stopped, for the most part, when rolling mills came on the market about 1780-1790. Probably later in America. so silversmiths/goldsmiths could buy sheets of silver and save on cost of making their own sheets. Then we have the term "Plate'. Used more commonly in England especially early on. So What I am saying is Get Educated by buying references and talking to knowledgable persons and visiting museums/historical societies/sites. Well, so much for my ramblings and hope your item is Scottish. IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 333 |
posted 08-11-2008 06:48 PM
Thank you all for the information. This is kind of what I thought which prompted the question. I asked for a guarantee and they wouldn't give me one so I cancelled the transaction. IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 08-13-2008 08:09 PM
You should have done that before you bought it. Or you could have asked if they would refund your money after you had it tested, & found it was not what you wanted. There is always a slight chance they were right but did not have enough info themselves when they offered it. There is nothing worse than bringing back an item after the fact, especially when you should have asked the questions. When you don't ask, the owness is on the Buyer. You are lucky they let you off the hook. Jersey IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 12-31-2008 10:09 AM
Buy a bottle of silver testing fluid. "Probiersäure für silber" is the name. One bottle costs 150 danish krone (danish krone is 7,5 to EURO) so 20euro save you a lot of problems. The bottle contains enough for testing 100 to 200 items. If it remains brown=it is not silver Easy to learn. Plated silver also turns red - so you scratch into the material (a place where not seen) IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 12-31-2008 10:44 AM
When all else fails, acid testing solutions such as "Probiersäure für silber" do have their uses. But the acids in these solutions remove silver and thereby change the object being tested. Many feel the acid mark is so minor that it can be polished/buffed away. And this continues the problem because the buffing removes more silver. Not testing with acids is best as it leaves the object undamaged/unchanged. There are lots of other tests that can be done; all that don't diminish the objects value. Above Kimo mentions specific gravity test which would be my first choice before acid tests. IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 12-31-2008 02:27 PM
In my experience most Scots silver has a makers mark of some description. Often no assay marks or town marks. I would certainly expect to see one on as large an item as a teapot. No dealer of any repute, certainly in England , would describe a Scots piece as "coin silver". IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 12-31-2008 04:11 PM
When considering an unmarked object, one should inquire if there is any provenance that might point to its origin; without it, there may be no way of definitively assigning it. In the case of Scotland, silver made outside the spheres of the Edinburgh or Glasgow assay offices likely would not have been sent for assay, and therefore would bear no hallmarks. Such silver would bear a maker or sponsor mark and often one or more other marks (pseudohallmarks) that may have indicated the town of origin or otherwise be peculiar to a maker. Unless of a type made nowhere else (like a quaich), silver objects bearing no marks of any sort and no provenance likely could not be convincingly identified as Scottish. IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 333 |
posted 06-16-2017 04:17 PM
continuing this thread from 2008... how common is it to find unmarked coin silverware? came across some that look interesting.. coffin end.. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 06-16-2017 10:38 PM
Not at all uncommon and quite infuriating. I have a box of around 100 spoons, c 1770-1850. They range from the pedestrian to some very elegant work. All are American, none are marked. I have seen a very nice set of eight place spoons by John Vernon. Three had his initial mark and pseudos, two had the pseudos alone, the rest nothing. They were an original set, documented in the family. Haste? A lazy apprentice? Who knows? [This message has been edited by wev (edited 06-16-2017).] IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 06-18-2017 10:53 AM
If it is unmarked you should assume that it is not silver of any quality (sterling, the lesser quality coin, or an even lesser quality of some percentage) but rather silver plate UNTIL you are able to test it with a reliable test. Acid is not reliable as that only tells you what is on the very surface and silver plated metal can test as sterling since it is only the surface metal that is exposed to the acid. Magnets are not reliable as non-magnetic metals are commonly used as the base in silver plated objects. If it is important to you whether your silver looking object is solid silver or silver plated then you really need to do a specific gravity test. You can either get a set up for yourself if you want to test things regularly or find a local jeweler who has a set up to test by specific gravity if you only want to test things rarely. There is another good testing technique called Wavelength Dispersive X-Ray Fluorescence Analysis but finding someone with one of those machines is difficult since they are incredibly expensive (think the price of a new car). Alternatively you can simply enjoy the items for their beauty and not care about the silver content. IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 333 |
posted 06-18-2017 11:50 AM
"Wavelength Dispersive X-Ray Fluorescence Analysis" Is this the same as XRF Spectroscopy? (Think that is the right term). My understanding of specific gravity testing is that you need to have a control item to judge against. Watched a video on specific gravity and Morgan silver dollar coins of which there are many fake ones out there. Not sure how you could do a specific gravity test of a particular spoon unless you had one exactly similar to use as a control. Regarding XRF - looked into these and it appears that this only tests the surface of an item and does not tell you what a piece is internally. Does anyone recommend any metal testing equipment ? Tks
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 06-25-2017 01:25 PM
Hi CBC. I am not a physicist so I cannot give you a detailed scientific answer of every detail but to answer your two questions: XRF is a generic name for a group of methods that involve X-Ray Fluorescence, Wavelength Dispersive X-Ray Fluorescence is a particular kind or application of XRF. No, it does not tell you only what is on the surface like acid does. The analyzer has an X-Ray emitter and an X-Ray detector built into it. The emitter sends a small amount of X-Rays into the material being analyzed which stimulates the atomic structure of the material into fluorescing a tiny bit and then the detector picks up that energy signature and via a tiny built-in computer it analyzes that information and gives you an easy to understand read out of every element in the tested object. As for specific gravity, you do not need something identical to the object you are testing, what you need is some pure water and that is the reference. What you are measuring is density and mass of the tested object compared to the density and mass of an equal amount of pure water. That yields a specific gravity value that you can compare to a table of known specific gravity values for sterling or 800 silver or 900 silver or 99.99 percent silver or whatever material you are testing for. For example, the specific gravity of sterling silver is 10.3 which means it is 10.3 times the specific gravity of water. Anything with a specific gravity greater than 1.0 will sink in water, anything less than 1.0 will float and anything exactly 1.0 will be suspended and neither float nor sink. Some comparison values of specific gravities are: pure silver is 10.49, pure nickel is 8.9, 14K yellow gold is 13.8, brass is 8.5, and so on. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 06-26-2017).] IP: Logged |
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