need help identifying makers mark - SMP Silver Salon Forums

SM Publications

Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.

SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

The Silver Salon Forums
Since 1993
Over 11,793 threads & 64,769 posts !!
Silver Jewelry Forum

Silver Salon internal search
or

How to Post Photos

Want to be a Moderator?

SMP Silver Salon Forums
tline

Silver Jewelry
tline3

need help identifying makers mark

profile | register | preferences | faq | search

SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone!

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Author	Topic: need help identifying makers mark
shelby68 Posts: 6 Registered: Apr 2005	posted 04-20-2005 09:35 AM Hi everyone. What a great site! I've been trying to research this mark which is located on a ring. I'm satisfied that the maker is unknown. The shape of the mark is unusual. It looks like an axe head or hatchet head. The ring is Chinese in design, with a dragon on either side. On the top is a round red stone surrounded by the Chinese yin-yang. It is also a poison ring, meaning the top opens to reveal a hidden compartment. There are no external hinges or latches. Inside where your finger goes, it is inscribed in old-style cursive German. The 835 silver content would lead me to believe that the maker was possibly German. My Divis book wasn't much help. If the image comes out, I can post more pics of the ring if anyone is interested. Thanks for any info. IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 04-20-2005 10:03 AM Hi! Welcome to the forum. Photos are pretty much necessary to make any decent assessment. The .835 silver standard smacks more of Netherlands and Belgium than of Germany. Could the engraving perhaps be Dutch? Good luck! IP: Logged
shelby68 Posts: 6 Registered: Apr 2005	posted 04-20-2005 11:52 AM My understanding is that German silversmiths such as Gerbruder Dehyle, Jakob Grimminger, Langer & Gunther... used 835 silver content frequently. Here are some additional pics of this ring (which I wear daily). IP: Logged
Arg(um)entum Posts: 304 Registered: Apr 2002	posted 04-20-2005 01:20 PM You are right that many German makers used 835 silver. Here we have the inscription to further point to Germany although it may have been added at the retail point. The script does not strike me as particularly old. The intriguing part is the message: " I breathe deeply and without fear ". Was that a political message or someones therapy? Interesting! IP: Logged
shelby68 Posts: 6 Registered: Apr 2005	posted 04-20-2005 01:26 PM According to the German "1884 Law over fine salaries of gold ware and silver ware"(translated), it was required for a maker to stamp a crescent moon and crown to the right for (silver) purity of 800/1000 or higher. Would the absence of this hallmark indicate the ring was made prior to 1884? Or were such marks not required on small items? IP: Logged
Arg(um)entum Posts: 304 Registered: Apr 2002	posted 04-20-2005 01:45 PM Noo! The law you refer to doesn't deal with 'salaries' but with metal content (both are 'Gehalt'). The crown/moon are not used on jewellery. Not relating to your ring but just to answer your question: fineness content is rarely indicated in the metric system prior to the introduction of that law. It's my impression that 835 silver while it occurs early, came into frequent use only in the mid-century. Keep that in mind along with the relatively 'modern' impression created by the script. IP: Logged
shelby68 Posts: 6 Registered: Apr 2005	posted 04-20-2005 02:22 PM Sociology 101: Ok, let's assume mid 20th century; Why would a ring, Chinese in every external detail, have an undetectable secret compartment and a German inscription "I breathe deeply and without fear" (I am proud and not afraid to die)? IP: Logged
Kimo Posts: 1627 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 04-20-2005 03:19 PM It strikes me as being new than mid-20th century. It looks to like the sort of thing you see sold in pawn shops and similar places that cater to young men who like things with skulls and crossbones and similar pseudo-mystic and macabre type designs. I doubt that it was actually used as a poison ring. The Chinese designs are not really even meaningful Chinese designs - they just give the impression. IP: Logged
blakstone Posts: 493 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 04-20-2005 03:25 PM Um, I would be very careful about the pride with which I wore it. What it actually is I cannot say, but they are commonly sold as "suicide rings". The (I strongly suspect apocryphal) story is that they were worn by German soldiers during WWII and they held a cyanide capsule for the owner to ingest should the need arise. Try googling "Ich atme tief und ohne Angst" and see what you find. Apparently they are eagerly sought after by militaria collectors, and also persons with whom the ideals of the Nazi r�gime have, shall we say, not quite died. They seem to be widely faked, given the recurrent online auction pronouncements of "Real! Genuine!" I suspect that that they belong with the likes of chastity belts and, indeed, most "poison" rings. To this I can only add that the if maker's mark is "P.V." (as I read it) I cannot find any German maker's mark of the period that matches. Mirable dictu. [This message has been edited by blakstone (edited 04-20-2005).] IP: Logged
Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 Registered: May 2003	posted 04-20-2005 03:44 PM The inscription appears to be a quote from a certain Peter Breitfelder who in turn was connected with Johannes Heinrich Schultz who around 1927 developed Schultz' autogenic training: "Psychomotor relaxation therapy in which the patient learns to relax tense muscles, become aware of his og her body parts and their degree of warmth, and intellectually to master bodily reactions." IP: Logged
Arg(um)entum Posts: 304 Registered: Apr 2002	posted 04-20-2005 04:05 PM The breadth of your knowledge, Blakstone, never ceases to astound me. IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 04-20-2005 04:30 PM "Angst" is a bit more than mere fear. Arg[um]ent is right abut the script which is not classical German Schrift, but modern script. The Nazis in fact tried to revive schrift in place of the more standard current form. The writing style alone suggests post 1945. Blacstone is of course right that Nazis ardent enough to kill themselves would have been purists about calligraphy! Tom [This message has been edited by tmockait (edited 04-20-2005).] IP: Logged

All times are ET	next newest topic \| next oldest topic
Administrative Options: Close Topic \| Archive/Move \| Delete Topic
	Hop to:

Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a

^1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

^2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

^3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.

| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver