posted 12-30-2008 12:28 PM            

I recently bought a Tiffany Faneuil Infant Feeding spoon, and need help establishing the manufacture period. The stamp on the back says only "Tiffany&Co Sterling" (See images below).

I am trying to start a silverware collection for my 10-month old son. Accidentally, I came across Tiffany's Faneuil pattern and liked it very much.

I purchased this feeding spoon from a third party, and I noticed that it did not say .925 in the stamp. I understand that "sterling" and ".925" mean the same, but the current edition of the Faneuil Infant Feeding Spoon has stamp that says "Tiffany & Co. Spain .925".

I tried to research Tiffany marks used on older silverware by contacting antique flatware sellers, reading info on websites and by reviewing photos of flatware offered for sale. I have discovered that there are Tiffany flatware stamps that do not say ".925", but they all had an initial "m". I was unable to find any photo that would show a stamp that says only "Tiffany & Co. Sterling".

Thanks.

posted 12-30-2008 05:32 PM            

I hope someone else can enlighten us.

I suspect this may be something that was manufactured by Lunt when Lunt was making Tiffany's production silver. Does anyone know who is the behind the scenes Tiffany maker today?

posted 12-30-2008 09:26 PM            

The sales people at the store you saw the "Spanish" Tiffany silver spoon in have not been educated properly.. Your spoon is indeed Tiffany (USA) and may date from the 1970's on, if I am not mistaken. Maybe even a little earlier. Neat piece.

Happy to have you here.

Marc

posted 12-31-2008 12:28 PM            

Thank you very much for the info!

In my research, I concentrated on Tiffany's Faneuil pattern, and I found images of several variations of the maker's stamp.

I saw a few Infant Feeding Spoons where the stamp said "Tiffany & Co. Sterling .925" (see picture) and I found a lot of pictures of Faneuil pieces stamped "Tiffany & Co. Sterling. M". I also found a variation of the stamp where the stamp gid not look rectangular, but rather left and right sides were pointing inwards (I can't find that picture now).

What I could not find was a picture of the stamp that looked identical to the one on my spoon - the one that said just "Tiffany & Co. Sterling".

Is there a reason why most Tiffany flatware on the market (eBay) is stamped "Tiffany & Co. Sterling. M" (with the initial "M"), but my spoon has neither "M" nor ".925"?

Is it possible that dimensions of this model change slightly from year to year? When I held in my hands the current - "Spanish" - version of the Faneuil Infant Feeding Spoon at the Tiffany store, I noticed that my spoon's handle was slightly thicker and the bowl was slightly deeper than the current version's.

Thank you,
Anthony.

posted 01-02-2009 12:47 PM            

Is it possible that dimensions of this kind spoon change slightly from year to year?

When I held in my hands the current - "Spanish" - version of the Faneuil Infant Feeding Spoon at the Tiffany store, I noticed that my spoon's handle was slightly thicker (not longer and not wider though) and the bowl was slightly deeper than the current version's.

posted 01-05-2009 12:03 AM            

I see how it may make sense to produce fake jewelry, but would it be feasible to make fake Tiffany silverware?

I noticed that many silverware items on eBay are engraved. It seems to me that engraving would significantly reduce the max price one could expect to get for an item. Also, I'd think that a seller of fake Tiffany flatware would have to sell many of them in different patterns to cover initial costs of making dies etc.

So, the question is whether fake Tiffany silverware is common.

Thank you.

posted 01-05-2009 04:59 AM            

This short reaction at your last question is done without reading the total topic (I will do that later) so if there are double arguments in this reaction and (a lot of grammatical failures, of course made by me)than I'm sorry.

If something it is fake you still can enjoy it and perhaps it is more special knowing it is not a serial product made by thousands.

A good example is that they made in Holland silverplate ash trays with inside decoration of the "night watch" (Rembrandt painting)that's not for collectors and I think pure fake. We say in Holland "Kitsch".

posted 01-05-2009 09:02 AM            

The main target of forgeries is the big name makers, but there is also a market in other things. For example, the last time I wandered through the open air markets in Bangkok I noticed a couple of stands selling 'genuine hand made American Indian silver and turquoise jewelry' that was made locally there. It was made well enough to fool most people who are not experts in American Indian jewelry. There were all of the typical styles and forms including concho belts, squash blossom necklaces, rings, bracelets, etc.

posted 01-05-2009 12:59 PM            

Kimo, great input. I really appreciate your opinion and hope you can elaborate a little more on my questions below.

First, I wanted to address the clarity of the mark. When you saying the mark is not clear are you referring to the second picture in my post? If yes, it was edited. It was cropped, blown up and brightened by the moderator using the first picture in my post.

I absolutely understand your example with American Indian jewelry made and sold in Bangkok. They must be selling some significant number of items that would justify the initial cost, or they wouldn't be doing it. The seller from whom I bought my spoon had only one Tiffany item for sale - the spoon, with a pouch and a box. I felt that the chance of getting a fake was less under these circumstances. Would it make sense to invest into making and selling ONE infant feeding spoon for $xx?

The fact that the printing on the pouch is off center bothered me too, but then, I found this Tiffany Faneuil Individual Salt Spoon form an eBay seller with a very high score. The printing on the pouch does not look right at all. Would you suspect that it is a fake?

Also, I found this auction for Faneuil Infant Feeding Spoon. The mark on the spoon for sale looks identical to the mark on my spoon.

If they were trying to sell fakes wouldn't it be in a better condition?

Thank you,
Anthony.

posted 01-05-2009 02:29 PM            

Richard, I am very new to silver collecting and have no experience whatsoever. I am sorry, but I am not sure what answer you are trying to lead me to.

I do not know the origin of Tiffany boxes or silver. I presume the origin of modern items is different from the one of the older items. From what I have read, I understand that Tiffany used to make their own silver flatware in the USA, then, at some point, they commissioned Lunt to produce it. Now it seems that certain items are produced abroad. It may be an oversimplification, but this is what I know. As I've been saying in my post, the current version of the Faneuil Infant Feeding Spoon that I saw at Tiffany & Co. in Pasadena, CA says "Spain" on the stamp.

If you have more information, please share it with me.

Thank you,
Anthony.

posted 01-05-2009 05:53 PM            

The lack of centering of the Tiffany name on the felt pouch is still a concern and raises my antennae, but I do not know enough about Tiffany pouches to say it is a certain problem. On the other hand, if you owned Tiffany and your reputation was for perfection, would you not have some quality control system in place to ensure your company's name and trademark was not so off the mark on something you sold? The second photo you show I would think is an obvious example of a fake Tiffany pouch. That marking looks to be rubber stamped and the ink is even on the edging threads.

As for seller feedbacks - high ratings are not entirely reliable. Sometimes dormant identities are hijacked by unscrupulous sellers for a time to sell things with the high feedbacks. Or there is a reluctance of many to leave negative feedbacks since up until recently the seller could retaliate with negative feedbacks. Or many people are simply not able to tell what is real and what is not, and they are blinded by thinking they have gotten a super deal and they leave positive feedbacks.

Most sellers of forgeries fall into two categories - either they are the original perpetrators or they are people who bought and had second thoughts about whether it was okay and are reselling. In the reselling category, most have excellent feedback ratings, and this can occur multiple times as the object is bought and resold repeatedly until some buyer is satisfied with it.

Sometimes forgers take older silver objects that are in the basic simple patterns used by Tiffany or other well known makers and simply create a fake hallmark die and mark them with the famous maker's markings. This can be done on unmarked silver or by overstamping a non-famous maker marking. These make for difficult to spot forgeries on older things.

And again, a forger does not need to make tens of thousands of an object to make money - they can do quite well selling a few hundred or a few thousand through various outlets around the world over time. Sometimes a seller dribbles out one here and one there using many accounts so as to not provoke suspicion. Keep in mind not only my comments about the low cost of labor and the lack of law enforcement, but also think about what makes for a worthwhile undertaking in a country where wages and cost of living are also very low.

posted 01-05-2009 07:02 PM            

As an aside, Just so you know, Tiffany pouches have changed over the years, the same quality is sorely lacking. I also note that their silver is not the same quality & weight as it once was. Cost factor I'm sure hit's them as well.

I recall not too long ago I brought a piece to them to be cleaned (with the original pouch). When they were done they put it in their "new" pouch. I said thank you, if they wanted to give it to me, but I wanted my "old" pouch. To my surprise, I got both!

P.S. Many sellers sell older Tiffany pouches too!

BTW Have you checked Tiffany's Spain website to see if they carry that spoon?

Have a great New Year & welcome to the forum!

posted 01-05-2009 09:01 PM            

Kimo, thank you for the explanation! I hope I am not being annoying, but I need to ask more or these questions will eat me from within.

I think I understand the point you are making - I have to become an expert if I want to be able to tell if an item is a fake. However, I am having trouble understanding what exactly I should be looking for.

I have a Faneuil TEASPOON that I purchased directly from Tiffany store. When comparing that TEASPOON to the INFANT FEEDING SPOON in question, I can not tell the difference in quality. They are both the same color, sheen, similar weight for the size, and neither has any defects as I can tell. The one major difference is the stamp. The TEASPOON says .925 and the INFANT FEEDING SPOON does not. I was hoping I could get an answer from someone here whether Tiffany ever used a stamp that says only "Tiffany & Co. Sterling", and, if yes, when. I could not find a picture of a stamp that looked exactly like the one on my Infant Feeding Spoon until a few days ago when I found another Faneuil infant feeding spoon at auction That spoon has the same stamp as mine, but it is in worse condition. I thought that if it was a fake, it'd be in a better condition. However, I understand your point about resellers not necessarily knowing that they are reselling a fake.

I also understand your point about the quality of the pouch, it bothered me too, but the materials and quality of Tiffany pouches and boxes must be changing over time as technology changes. Regarding the picture in my last post: is it possible that at the time when it was considered cool to own an "individual salt spoon" the brand name on Tiffany pouches was "rubber stamped"? Or that 10, 15, 20 years ago they were a little more lax on whether their brand name is centered on the pouch?

One person said to me that it'd be cheaper to find used flatware for sale than to start producing forgeries. I am not sold on that, especially after reading points you've made.

Thank you,
Anthony.

posted 01-05-2009 10:31 PM            

From the photos, the die work was excellent. So, making up forgeries is really quite simple. A second run has no die cost, so it becomes even cheaper.

posted 01-05-2009 10:43 PM            

I'd like to chime in about the pouches. You've posted two, and I'm not sure which is which. Pouches, of course, are easily swapped and changed out, so they can't provide a definitive answer.

But I am profoundly disturbed by the second one. I would say that the logo is not the Tiffany logo. The first one appears to be the official Tiffany logo. But the second is a sans serif face, and the letters are sloppily spaced. (Look, for example, at the NY relationship; the & Co. spacing; and the difference in height between the F and the A.) Companies invest hugely in their logos; it always astounds me when knock-off artists fail to come even close to the actual logo.

Perhaps I am wrong; perhaps Tiffany developed a more 'modern' corporate graphic identity program at some point. But I don't think so. And if they did, they would have developed a far more elegant, well-designed logo than this one.

posted 01-06-2009 12:17 AM            

Dale, I understand that anything can be forged, but, let's assume that someone is forging Tiffany Faneuil Infant Feeding Spoons. Wouldn't there be a lot of them for sale online like there are of fake Tiffany jewelry items? Yet there aren't many spoons (at least I could not find). I know it sounds like I am trying to talk myself into believing that my spoon is not fake (which maybe it is not), but I am just having hard time believing that someone would be forging a not-so-popular item.

Seaduck, the first set of photos in my original question are of the spoon I am researching. The photo of a pouch with stamped logo next to a small round spoon is from an store. I saw that the seller has been selling since 1998, has over 87,000 reviews, and has 99.8% positive feedback. Would they be selling fakes? Maybe, but I my logic says they'd know a fake and would not post a picture of a clearly fake pouch risking their reputation; they'd, probably, just post a picture of the spoon alone. Maybe that's just an old pouch? Are there Tiffany pouch experts?

Thank you,
Anthony.

posted 01-06-2009 06:25 PM            

If you do an internet search for how to spot a tiffany fake pouch you will find a lot of answers. The other thing would be to stop by Tiffany's and ask to see their current pouches. There is also enough written regarding their marks.

The final word is buy from one who will accept returns if the item is not authentic. Ask questions first.

Lots to learn! Have fun!

Jersey

posted 01-06-2009 08:21 PM            

A new method of production arose in the 1960's. Factories took in work from other companies. The owner of the design and dies would solicite bids from silver makers. The best bid would win a contract to produce a set number of pieces. This was common in silverplate: the ubiquitous grape wine goblet has turned up marked with countries of origin ranging from Spain, India, Israel, Argentina to USA. Tiffany may have done this with your spoon. Put it up for bid and a company in Spain won the bid.

posted 01-06-2009 08:36 PM            

As we know, the US silver companies are in financial trouble. But new firms are springing up. The advantage these companies have is that they produce by hand. With mechanical production, you cannot afford to make one teapot, you end up making dozens or maybe even hundreds. With hand making, one teapot is doable. The prices are generally lower than those charged by the manufacturers. Between order and shipment the time is two weeks. There are several companies with web sites offering silver.

posted 01-07-2009 08:10 AM            

The Tiffany of old made their name selling quality. Even their smalls were of quality. Today Tiffany is selling the name Tiffany so quality becomes less important. The label buying public is at the root of this transition.

The industrial age was once about producing more goods, of high quality, at cost that a mass market would find affordable. Today industrialization has seemingly transitioned to facsimile manufacturing, at cost that a mass market would find affordable. Quality takes a back seat because the label is what has become important to a label frantic consumer.

If you truly like the Faneuil pattern and you care about quality, then learn about and buy antique/vintage Tiffany Faneuil pattern silver.

posted 01-07-2009 03:13 PM            

Scott, I truly like Faneuil pattern; however, buying vintage as you recommend is what I am uneasy about, because I do not know whether I can tell a genuine item from a fake one (if fake Faneuil flatware exists).

OK, speaking of the pouch with the individual salt spoon. I know it "looks" fake, but consider this. The individual salt spoon is not currently offered by Tiffany, I think it an old out-of-production item. Let's say it is 60 years old, and let's assume that the pouch is the original pouch. Why are we comparing it to modern pouches? Did Tiffany use the same technology/quality control to apply their brand name to pouches 60 years ago? Could the font be different?

The point I was trying to make is that the seller of the salt spoon on the famous online auction site (hint, hint) has 80+ THOUSAND reviews with ~100% satisfaction rating, and has been a seller for 10+ years. I suppose, 10+ years is enough time to gain the necessary experience to distinguish fakes. Why would they risk their reputation posting a picture of a fake pouch when the item for sale is the authentic spoon? It just seems strange, and leads me to believe that it may just be an old pouch.

Going back to what started this thread, I am interested if there is a reference book that would show images of ALL of Tiffany stamps and dates when they were used, and maybe different types of pouches.

I contacted Tiffany, and they kindly offered me access to their archives for something like $1,000 per question.

Thank you,
Anthony.