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Ortega of Mexico

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Author	Topic: Ortega of Mexico
SV Posts: 20 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 01-26-2004 04:17 PM Does anyone know a good source of information on pieces by Ortega of Mexico? I can't find a thing on the web. IP: Logged
Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 Registered: May 99	posted 01-26-2004 04:28 PM Mexican silver isn't my specialty--but there are a lot of Mexican silver experts out there, and books on the topic. If you can't find it on the Internet, that means almost nothing...it all depends if anyone's put anything out there. Do we have a forum for Mexican silver? The ARts and Crafts Forum? IP: Logged
FredZ Posts: 1070 Registered: Jun 99	posted 01-26-2004 11:27 PM My guess is that your items were made by Alfredo Ortega and Sons. Are there other marks on your silver and are they holloware or jewelry? The Ortega pieces are sometime marked with an 8 or 9 eagle mark and sometimes an old style flying eagle mark. Fred IP: Logged
SV Posts: 20 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 01-27-2004 09:02 AM It's a tea set, five pieces on a large tray. The tray does have an eagle with the number 8 in it, above "Ortega of Mexico," as well as a flying eagle below the words. The serving pieces each has two marks: one a diamond with an indiscernible figure, the other a square with a woman's head. If you know a good reference book that includes Ortega I would appreciate it. Thanks for the help. IP: Logged
FredZ Posts: 1070 Registered: Jun 99	posted 01-27-2004 10:39 AM The information I gave you on the Ortegas comes from a recently pubished book "The Little Book of Mexican Silver Trade and Hallmarks" by Bille Hougart. This book is filled with marks and some sparce information about the silversmiths. I am not aware of any others that even mention the Ortega shop. I do not know where they are/were located. Fred IP: Logged
SV Posts: 20 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 01-27-2004 10:57 AM Thank you, Fred. IP: Logged
FredZ Posts: 1070 Registered: Jun 99	posted 01-27-2004 12:25 PM I did a quick search for the Ortega shop and discovered that they are still producing silver in Mexico City. Fred IP: Logged
SV Posts: 20 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 01-27-2004 12:37 PM I've done numerous searches on the web to locate them but have come up empty. I don't have any direct sources but I've just ordered the book you cited earlier. How did you find them and do you have an e-mail address or phone number? IP: Logged
FredZ Posts: 1070 Registered: Jun 99	posted 01-27-2004 02:15 PM I used Google for my search and typed in Ortega silver mexico. The first two entries were articles written for "Mexico Desconicido". The article "The Art of Silverware in modern times" written by Leonor Lopez Dominguez. The article mentions that Ortega makes holloware and flatware in the heart of Mexico City. You can email me by clicking on the envelope icon above this reply. Fred [This message has been edited by FredZ (edited 01-27-2004).] IP: Logged
kayvee unregistered	posted 01-27-2004 03:36 PM Have you considered that the tea service pieces, marked with a diamond and a head in a rectangle, could possibly be from another maker than the tray which is marked for Ortega? As you describe them, these marks sound continental rather than Mexican. A picture of all marks might help us to determine this possibility. IP: Logged
Bill H Posts: 31 Registered: Jan 2002	posted 01-27-2004 07:53 PM Penny Morrill and Carole Berk's book "Mexican Silver" mentions the Ortega shop as follows: "'In Mexico City the great produces are still Ortega, Mendoza, Maciel, and Matilde.' William Spratling in 1955 was describing the silverbusiness in Mexico, mentioning several of the prominent silver house in the capital. Alfredo Ortega and Sons was located at 13 Cinco de Mayo and appeared in the advertising section of travel books from the 1930s into the 1970s. The work of Ortega...was European or colonial in style." A catalog of the exhibit of Mexican Gold and Silver Craftsmanship held by the Museum of Popular Arts and Industries in 1952 confirms that the Otega house was major manufacturer. A stunning piture is shown in the catalog along with the examples of work from Frederick Davis and of course Spratling. Ortega was the only firm to have two sectionds dedicated to their work in the exhibit. IP: Logged
SV Posts: 20 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 01-28-2004 09:55 AM Regarding Kayvee's comment that the tray and pieces might be separate, I have been thinking the same thing and it's certainly a possibility. However, the (modest) ornamentation on the serving pieces resembles other Mexican sterling that I have. Also, the pieces all have wooden handles and the woman who collected them was herself, to my understanding, Mexican. I wondered also whether Ortega, producing silver that was 'European or colonial in style,' might have used marks resembling those of European makers but I will wait to receive Bille Hougart's book to figure that out. The marks are quite blurred anyway. I'll try to arranage to get pictures on this site. Fred, I don't know why but when I type "Ortega silver mexico" into Google the first thing I get is an ad for an Ortega silver tea set (similar but much more ornate than mine) with similar marks on the tray. IP: Logged
kayvee unregistered	posted 01-28-2004 10:24 AM Looking forward to getting a fuller description of the marks on your service. Wooden handles by no means rules out continental silver. As Ortega is a reputable firm, I doubt that they would use pseudo marks on service pieces, and doubt that the same maker would mark the tray and service pieces so differently. Anyway, getting to the bottom of who made your service and tray will be interesting and fun. Good luck! IP: Logged
SV Posts: 20 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 01-28-2004 03:05 PM After further inspection (with a better magnifying glass) the marks are as follows: 1) In a diamond, the letter S above a full-bodied rabbit (pointed left) above what is, I believe, a J. The letters are cursive. Actually, on one mark the J looks more like a C. I've only found two makers marks (both European) that closely resemble the SJ, but no rabbit. You're right about the wooden handles, and I understand many French services had them. 2) In a square and marked twice on each piece, the head of a Roman soldier, with helmet, facing right. From my amateur perspective the latter hallmark most closely resembles a French discharge mark, although again I can't find an exact match. I'll check the book on Mexican silver when I receive it and would appreciate any help in the meantime. IP: Logged
Brent Posts: 1507 Registered: May 99	posted 01-28-2004 04:44 PM The marks you describe are almost certainly French. The head is actually of the goddess Minerva, and is a French Standard mark, not a discharge mark. All French maker's marks from the late 18th C onward are in a dimaond-shaped lozenge, like yours. Brent IP: Logged
SV Posts: 20 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 01-28-2004 04:56 PM Brent - since the figure is androgynous at best, are you sure it isn't Hermaphrodite? [Kidding.] I'll keep looking among the French standard marks for which I have references. I'd appreciate any ideas you have on the bunny. IP: Logged
SV Posts: 20 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 01-28-2004 05:22 PM Brent - I missed the #1 in the corner of the standard mark. In 'The Book of Old Silver,' this corresponds to the 1st Standard Mark, 1838. Still no bunny. IP: Logged
kayvee unregistered	posted 01-31-2004 06:38 PM You have discovered a surprise treasure sitting on your Ortega tray! As indicated by Brent, your tea service is French first standard (.950 silver), manufactured between 1838, when the Minerva mark was adopted, and 1972. After 1972 Minerva has a date letter added on the lower right of the shield. As for the maker, in my experience about 80% of French maker's marks are read from left to right with the long axis of the lozenge or diamond horizontal. The rest are read from top to bottom with the long axis of the lozenge vertical. The usual format is initial, symbol, initial. The symbol often represents the silversmith trade (e.g., a knife, a kettle), or can be a play on the maker's name (e.g., a cross for Lacroix). A full-bodied bunny is not familiar to me, although a number of makers do use animals or birds as symbols. French maker's marks are hard to read because they are so small. Just for fun, I suggest you rotate the mark 90 degrees and see if the letters or symbol look different with the long axis horizontal. Your left-facing bunny might turn out to be a mouse! If you could get access to at least 10X magnification, it would be a great help. I'd love to see a picture of your service. The style might help determine the maker. IP: Logged
SV Posts: 20 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 02-01-2004 12:56 PM Further scrutiny of the marks has not made this any easier. Each of the five pieces has one diamond mark and a couple of Minerva 1 marks. They are stamped where the top of the handle meets the body, one mark on either side or, on one piece, both to the right. Several of the maker's marks are upside down. On three of the pieces the diamond reads vertically when using the rabbit as a reference. [Unless there is a species of mouse with long ears and a bushy tail, this is the mark of a bunny.] The characters read as follows: the letter S above a rabbit above what is most likely a J, although a T would not be impossible. The letter has some flourish and curves into the bottom corner of the diamond. On the fourth piece the mark reads horizontally: rabbit at the top with S & F along the bottom of the diamond. There appears to be another charcter to the right of the F but I am using what is probably 3X magnification so I can't tell. [Clearly I need to get a better magnifying glass.] The fifth piece also reads horizontally, with the bunny above C & S. Kayvee, I appreciate your interest and will try to post some pictures soon; I've been pretty busy. I also haven't been able to identify a rabbit among French makers. Thanks again. IP: Logged
kayvee unregistered	posted 02-01-2004 03:22 PM The placement of the marks is consistent with French manufacture. It sounds like the key is getting access to a good loupe, because the maker's marks should be consistent in their lettering and orientation of the lozenge. IP: Logged
SV Posts: 20 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 02-13-2004 09:12 PM Still trying to make some pictures available. I don't have a personal web page yet but am looking into host sites. IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 02-13-2004 11:01 PM See the thread photos for suggestions of photo hosting sites. IP: Logged
SV Posts: 20 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 02-16-2004 03:53 PM Finally got some pictures onto Inkfrog, for anyone who's still interested. Here are the links. I'm still figuring out the Inkfrog site and had to list these one at a time. IP: Logged
kayvee unregistered	posted 02-18-2004 04:34 PM Thanks for sharing photos of your lovely service. The work on the spout of the tall pot or jug is particularly nice. The set is in the eighteenth century style. Most French silver manufacturers make services in this very popular style, so we are no closer to determining the maker. When you are able to get better magnification of the marks, you'll get a clearer idea of who the maker might be. As I mentioned, the usual sequence for the mark is initial, symbol, initial in a diamond shaped lozenge. It would be very, very likely to have the same symbol (your bunny) appear with different initials, as each mark is unique to the maker. Makers with the same initials would choose different symbols. If the maker's marks on each piece are not all the same, then you have a composed service by different makers in the same eighteenth century style, which also would be entirely possible. IP: Logged
SV Posts: 20 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 02-18-2004 05:28 PM Kayvee, Thanks for your comments. If the style is fairly common, I'll have to work on identifying the maker through the rabbit, which is common to all the pieces. I have isolated the initials pretty well (above) without a loupe and you're right: apparently several different makers contributed to the set. The Book of Old Silver doesn't include a single running rabbit. Do you know of a book or other source with a larger list of French makers' marks? Thank you, SV IP: Logged
Kayvee unregistered	posted 02-19-2004 12:02 PM In my opinion, the best resource is by Tardy, "International Hallmarks on Silver." Sadly this classic is out of print. You'll be able to find it on the Net from various booksellers, but at a high price. This reference book is an English translation of Tardy, "Poin�ons d'argent." There is a new 20th edition of the French title published in 1998 that retails for about $60. As the book is mostly illustrations of marks, if you don't have a good grasp of French it should not be too intimidating. IP: Logged
SV Posts: 20 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 02-19-2004 05:58 PM I found the Tardy book online last night for $175. Not really worth it. IP: Logged
Kayvee unregistered	posted 02-19-2004 08:31 PM Your local public library might have Tardy or be able to obtain it on interlibrary loan. Also your friendly local silver shop might let you look at their copy. IP: Logged

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