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American Silver before sterling ID this maker?
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Author | Topic: ID this maker? |
Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 01-06-2019 08:55 PM
Coin silver tongs with eagle-claw ends, fiddle-type arms, and pseudo marks: eagle, D, bust, in octagons. Does anybody have thoughts about who might have made it, where, and when? Perhaps someone with a copy of McGrew's book on pseudomarks (which clearly I need to get)?
IP: Logged |
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-06-2019 09:21 PM
I am far away from my books at the moment, but I believe that these are among the wholesale marks attributed to John Lawson Westervelt and his circle of partners. Could be way off base, but maybe a start. IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 01-06-2019 10:35 PM
Thanks, wev! The rest of the Internet seems to think Westervelt's marks are JLW, variants on his name, and <star><lion>D, all in octagons. I'm not seeing anyone claim the eagle and bust are associated with him. But this is just me randomly poking around on the Internet--do you think you're misremembering or he really did use the eagle and bust? IP: Logged |
ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 01-07-2019 09:14 AM
McGrew attributes it to Green Hall and John D. Hewson of Albany. It has appeared on many retailers silver. [This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 01-07-2019).] IP: Logged |
ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 01-07-2019 09:22 AM
IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 01-07-2019 09:22 AM
Thank you, ahwt! (I think you have a typo and meant Hewson rather than Newson.) IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 01-07-2019 09:27 AM
I clearly need that book! My guess based on the style was 1830s, which is consistent with this info. This is interesting:
quote: IP: Logged |
ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 01-07-2019 09:34 AM
I did but it is fixed now. Thanks. Albany had some great and early silversmiths. I have always thought that the claws of this type were separately cast and then affixed to the arms of the tongs. The claws on these tongs are very bold. Very nice tongs. IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 01-07-2019 08:06 PM
I agree that the eagle-claw ends were cast separately. I've seen similar--possibly identical--claws on tongs from different silver makers. This particular pair is engraved to give it texture. I bought these because the seller was asking lunch money for them. It seems to be a fairly good time to buy silver, with the melt price low and young people Marie Kondo-ing away all the "clutter" of the past. I've been on a bit of a spree lately: egg spoons and vinaigrettes and several pairs of sugar tongs. IP: Logged |
asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 01-08-2019 12:10 PM
"lunch money" Ha! I love that term, and I'll likely be using that one. I love finding coin silver examples under those circumstances! Hence the boxes of spoons I have accumulated. Speaking of, I once found a dish cross for, lets say, "gas money" prices. It was black and when I inspected it, BAM! London, 1788 hallmarks! Fun indeed! IP: Logged |
asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 01-08-2019 12:33 PM
I don't think I've ever shown this here before... (before being polished, as found) IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 01-08-2019 10:48 PM
Ooo, asheland! Look at that adorable clear little 18th c lion on its toe! IP: Logged |
asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 01-09-2019 10:40 AM
Yep! I love those little Lion Passants on all the accessories... IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 01-23-2019 01:47 PM
I found another pair of these c. 1830s coin silver eagle-clawed fiddle-shaped sugar tongs for lunch money. This one is marked lion G bust, plus part of another mark. I think it's by Merritt Fordham (Merrit Fordham?) of NYC, 1828-33.
It's the same size as my previous pair:
The claws on the two pairs are similar, but not identical: IP: Logged |
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-23-2019 02:24 PM
From the 1834 STEELE & HOCKNELL wholesale price list I have: Sugar Tongs -- per pair [This message has been edited by wev (edited 01-23-2019).] IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 01-23-2019 02:31 PM
Cool, wev! I kinda wish they'd coughed up the extra 12 cents for the basket of flowers... wonder what that is in today's money? IP: Logged |
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-23-2019 02:46 PM
at the standard inflation rate, a dollar then would be $28.50 now. IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 01-23-2019 03:05 PM
According to the calculator on this website: Historical Currency Conversions $.88 in 1834 had buying power equivalent to today's $25.41 (which is a bit LOWER than in 1833). According to your website, wev, Steel & Hocknell also charged $1.20/oz (I presume this is ozt?) for silver. My new tongs weigh 1.10 ozt. So if Mr. Fordham charged similar prices, they would have cost the original buyer ($1.20)(1.10)+($.88)=$2.20 in 1834, which is the equivalent of $63.53 today, according to that web calculator (who knows how accurate it is). If Mr. Fordham made and sold them in 1833, they would have cost the equivalent of $64.83. Assuming he was charging the same for work and silver in 1828, they would have cost the equivalent $57.75. Silversmith members, how long does it take to make a pair of sugar tongs like these? I assume the ends are cast in bulk, soldered on, and chased, yes? I bought them for much less than Mssrs Steel & Hocknell would have charged me, including shipping. But more typical prices today seem similar to what they were charging back in the day. This is all assuming that website is even remotely accurate, of course. I know nothing about it. Other calculators seem to use government measures of inflation, but typically only go back to 1913. IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 01-23-2019 03:12 PM
So it would have been around $3.00-$3.50 more in today's money for the baskets of flowers. That seems cheap. But maybe it wasn't much more work to add them? It wouldn't have taken more silver, just an additional stamping step, I guess. IP: Logged |
ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 01-23-2019 04:18 PM
Thanks for that information Polly. John McGrew had an excellent article on Basket of Flowers variations in the Mar/Apr 1989 issue of Silver Magazine. IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 01-30-2019 09:38 PM
Now that I have my copy of John McGrew's excellent book, I've changed my mind about the maker of my second pair of clawed tongs. I was basing my opinion that it was by Merrit Fordham on having seen the "lion G bust" mark next to Fordham's mark somewhere on the internet. But I now think--based on McGrew's page about the "lion G bust" combo--that Fordham was just the retailer, and the maker was our old friend Hall & Hewson (or Hall, Hewson, & Brower), the same folks who made Claw Tongs #1. I continue not to know exactly when the tongs were made, and I continue to stubbornly think it was the '30s, mostly because I like the width of ladies' sleeves during that period. To be fair, Hall & Hewson/HH & Co were in business from 1828-46, more than half of which comprised the 30s, so my sleeve-based guess could well be right. IP: Logged |
ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 01-30-2019 11:43 PM
I think the process of making the basket took a little time as the basket was imprinted in the silver by hand striking a die multiple times. I do not know how many times it took, but the process must have taken some experience to do correctly. I can imagine the second time it hit the die, the die would have moved and I would have a blurry basket. I think this process was the same as used on picture back spoons. When William Gale invented a method using mechanical force the process was considerable easier to do. IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 07-27-2019 01:54 PM
I just found another lunch-money pair of 1830s coin silver tongs, this time with paw ends instead of claw ends and a basket of flowers. Eagerly awaiting their arrival. IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 08-05-2019 10:51 PM
Here are the new tongs. They're marked C. Johnson, an incuse D, and three very faint octagonal marks that I believe might be Hall & Hewson again. I can make out a bust and a lion; the thing in the middle is illegible, but it could be a G. Dr. McGrew attributes the Bust G Lion to Hall, Hewson, & Brower, with Brower joining the firm in 1838, possibly later than these tongs might have been made (but maybe not?). The retailer, C. Johnson, is Chauncey Johnson of Albany, 1824-31/38-41, according to McGrew, or c. 1820-1830, then in a partnership with Alonzo W. Johnson from 1831-38, then alone again (naturally) from 38-41, according to wev's site. So I now think all three pairs of lunch-money tongs were made by Hall & Hewson (or possibly Hall, Hewson, & Brower, after the former apprentice joined the firm). I wonder how many more pairs of their tongs I'll find for lunch money! They must have made a ton. This particular pair was listed as 1920s-40s silverplated ice tongs. Off by a century! How irritatingly smug I am.
IP: Logged |
asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 08-06-2019 10:18 AM
Very nice tongs! IP: Logged |
ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 08-06-2019 11:56 AM
Your tongs have a nice crisp basket; great find. I think the letter D meant that the tongs were made from silver dollars. IP: Logged |
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