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 Continental / International Silver
 mark ID
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| Author | Topic: mark ID |
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noinwi Posts: 6 |
posted 09-19-2005 01:04 PM
  
[26-0671] I'm trying to ID marks on a small measuring cup my husband acquired in Finland some years ago. It could be plated as it is stamped ALP on one side just below the flare. I haven't been able to find anything like these marks online, or at the library. Any info is appreciated. I tried resizing my pictures... IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 09-19-2005 01:52 PM
I would say it is plate. My further suspicion is that the marks you see are actually a place to attach a handle. Just a guess though. IP: Logged |
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noinwi Posts: 6 |
posted 09-19-2005 08:06 PM
I don't think it is supposed to have a handle...the "patch" is right above the measurement mark. It almost seems like some sort of shot glass to me. Anyway, here are more pictures...and thank you for responding. IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 09-19-2005 10:06 PM
ALP is commonly used in Scandanavia to designate nickel silver (i.e., silverplate). Check out this thread for a further discussion: puzzler Good luck, IP: Logged |
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noinwi Posts: 6 |
posted 09-20-2005 11:55 AM
Thank you for the link. Yes, I have seen the ALP reference before, but that is the only info I've been able to find. I would still like to find what the other marks mean, and what kind of measuring cup it is. We took it to an antique store a while back and the owner told us she'd seen a set of them before and quickly brushed us off. We are not interested in value, but in the history/origins of it. The person that gave it to my husband seemed to think it had some sort of history to it. Maybe he was mistaken, or maybe the history was within his own family. We are no longer able to contact him. In any case we'll keep searching. Thanks again. IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 09-20-2005 02:50 PM
The two sets of four digit numbers may well be patten and order numbers. That and the fact the piece is plate suggest it was mass produced. Add the antique dealers brush off (rude of course), and I would not get my hopes up for "history," unless it is personal or sentimental. Try Wyler's book on Victorian silver plate. Good luck, IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 09-20-2005 04:33 PM
Note that although this piece does appear to be plated (by color), alpacca need not be so. I see pieces regularly -- European, Latin American, and even US -- that clearly were never plated, just left with the natural alpacca / nickel silver finish. The original alloys were intended to be close enough to silver in color that they would either not show badly through worn spots, if plated, or would look decent if left alone. The taste, however, is a different matter -- they have that coppery or nickely kind of tang rather than the more subtle silver taste. I don't recognize the marks, and it's likely to be much harder to find a source for these than it would be for silver marks. But to my eye they're reminiscent of marks I see sometimes (mostly on European pieces) that are statements of accuracy of measurement rather than of metal quality. It might be instructive to measure the volume of the piece, if you have access to something like a quality graduated cylinder. On the other hand, there's an odd disparity between the brushed or turned finish of the piece and the apparently hammered surface of the 'tag' with the marks. There may be something more going on here.... IP: Logged |
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salmoned Posts: 336 |
posted 09-20-2005 05:34 PM
I would suggest weighing as a better method of determining volume. Of course, silver collectors tend to have good scales readily available... The '4 cl' suggests 4 centiliters (40 ml). That volume of pure water should weigh about 40 grams. Pure speculation - perhaps this was a shot measure in a 'renown' bar? [This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 09-20-2005).] IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 09-20-2005 06:27 PM
FWG, Thanks for the correction. Alpaca is the metal which may or may not be silverplated. Tom IP: Logged |
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Raf Steel Posts: 94 |
posted 09-21-2005 04:15 AM
I think Fwg is on the right track regarding the 'marks': for weights and measures it was necessary to have them checked every year by the state (customs and taxes offices mostly) if they gave the correct measurements. I think the term is 'gauging'. Most European country's had their own system. I know in the case of Belgium, this practice only died out in the 1970's! The form of the mark: crown with numbers is typical of such a stamp. IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 09-21-2005 08:03 AM
ALPACCA 1843 Alexander Schoeller and Herrmann Krupp founded in Berndorf/Austria the "Berndorfer Metallwarenwerke". 1845 this firm created cutlery based on an aloy out of copper, tin and nickel (this is n o t plated!)under the trade mark of "Alpacca". Since 1886 the firm was named "Berndorfer Metallwarenfabrik, Arthur Krupp", since 1915 as "Berndorfer Metallwarenfabrik Arthur Krupp A. G." The "Alpacca" trade marks are: "ALPACCA", "A. L. P." and "ALPACCA PRIMA NS" (NS stands for the German word "Neusilber") What you have is a measuring cup (4 cl) made of "ALPACCA" or NS (Neusilber) and have the official, periodically renewed recalibrating punches of the government on an extra "softer" surface - it must be used several times. Hope that helps Sazikov 2000 IP: Logged |
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noinwi Posts: 6 |
posted 09-21-2005 09:51 AM
Thank you all for clearing up the alpaca issue. I've seen some Finnish jewelry (chain) with the ALP stamp also. It is apparently used there quite a bit. I'm wondering if the cup isn't a "vodka cup" as the 4cl is very near the same as a "jigger". A question(or two) for Sazikov and Raf Steel...under what circumstances would a lowly thing like a measuring cup need to be recalibrated? Are barkeepers regularly checked for accurate dispensing? I know how the Russians(and Finns)feel about their vodka(assuming that is what the cup was used for).I'm sorry for my ignorance about this.In the mean time I'll try to check on the weight. IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 09-21-2005 11:53 AM
In civilised countrys the government is interested that their citizens are not defraudet. So all measures, wighting instruments (scales) etc. are calibrated and proofmarked (mostly) every year. Even beer glasses have a visible mark for 0.5 Liter or in Bavaria for 1.0 Liter, so you can easily see if it is filled correctly or not. People always and everywhere tried to cheat. This measuring cup is the normal outfit of every barman to mix drinks or cocktails. The Russians and Fins do NOT drink Vodka measured with cl (centiliter) - they drink Vodka measured in Gramms (!!!), starting with 150 Gramms per person.... Nasdarowje! Sazikov 2000 IP: Logged |
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noinwi Posts: 6 |
posted 09-21-2005 02:10 PM
I'm sure I will be repremanded by my husband, too...he is a Finn. Thank you for all the information. IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 09-21-2005 04:25 PM
Sazakov, et. al., The source I found includes zinc in the nickel silver alloy (60% copper, 5% tin, and the rest equal parts zinc and nickel). Is this correct? Tom IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 09-21-2005 05:35 PM
Found a good online source on nickel silver and other such alloys: [gone from the internet - pages.zoom.co.uk/leveridge/nickel1.html] There are probably hundreds of different mixes under the rubric of nickel silver.... IP: Logged |
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