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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 Maker "F S" and Shield mark?
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| Author | Topic: Maker "F S" and Shield mark? |
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salmoned Posts: 336 |
posted 05-22-2007 07:47 PM
  
[19-0837] The seller said this teaspoon was by Floyd Smith of New York. However, my Ensko book only lists his mark as "Floyd Smith". Could someone confirm or correct this attribution? Thank you! IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 05-22-2007 08:02 PM
I saw this one - the form is not American, but European. The first mark looks like a coat of arms, but I did not find it in Louda's European Civic Coats of Arms. Perhaps someone else will recognize it. IP: Logged |
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salmoned Posts: 336 |
posted 05-22-2007 08:42 PM
Hmmm, I just assumed it was the standard 'stars over bars' shield for the U.S (too small to fit the stars  ). Could it be a coincidence that there are 13 stripes? Here's a photo with what I assumed were the owner's initials. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 05-22-2007 09:47 PM
Your photo shows the shield more clearly than the seller's photo, and I can see where you might have thought it a Federal shiels. The only place such a shield (but of different form) was used was in Baltimore during the assay period. It also appeared in Philadelphia. The spoon, hosever, is of a decidedly French or German flavor, and the orientation of the owner's initials reading with the bowl up (rather than down) is also European. The only other possibility - however unlikely - would be that it was made by a French Canadian silversmith working in (or selling to) the US, such as Francois Sasseville of Quebec, whose work is represented in the Detroit Institute of Arts. However Langdon does not show this maker's mark, there is no such shield in McGrew's compendium, and there is no such maker's mark for Floyud Smith, so there is no evidence I am aware of to support an American origin. You can't believe everything (anything?) you see on eBay! IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 05-23-2007 11:11 AM
I'm afraid I'm with Swarter - definitely looks European. And the stamped-in initials instead of engraved monogram also would be unusual for the US. It's always possible it was made for a client with Germanic tastes, or to match an existing set, but it seems unlikely to me. The Darling Foundation volume does attribute an initial mark to Floyd Smith, but it's F pellet S. And the basis for that attribution is, as usual, unclear. IP: Logged |
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salmoned Posts: 336 |
posted 05-23-2007 12:22 PM
Well, the seller's photos were too blurry to distinguish anything more than the form, and I have no experience in this particular area, so I knew it was a pig in a poke (for me). The specific gravity test indicates solid silver (perhaps .800 tho), so I'm satisfied with the purchase. If you think moving this post to a different forum may generate additional information, please do so. In any case, I appreciate your input. [This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 05-23-2007).] IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 05-23-2007 12:59 PM
Buying on the internet is always a risky affair. There are dealers I have worked with and those I do trust. In buying an item that your are not somewhat knowledgable about That west coast auction site has a 'feedback' rating system. This used to be good system but now most dealers state they give feedback only after receiving feedback. To me this is just a way to guarantee positive feedback so with someone I do not know I would not give a dime for the validity of the feedback system now. Well, now that I have that off my chest please let us not start a squabble about feedback rating systems. If you like the spoon then that is all that really matters. Enjoy collecting. IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 05-23-2007 07:17 PM
I see the seller referenced Belden - I'll take a look there when I get home. In any case, a perfectly decent buy. Personally I've always liked that form, it feels very 'strong' and crisp. But not American, in all likelihood, and I'd say probably somewhere close to a century more recent than the seller's date - I'd estimate late 19th to early 20th century. IP: Logged |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 05-24-2007 01:13 PM
The spoon is almost certainly Swiss, from the town of Zofingen. Variations on this same shield mark were used in Zofingen throughout the 19th C. You don't see much Swiss silver in this country, but that's what it is. Explains the French/German feel of the design, because it literally is somewhere in between. Brent IP: Logged |
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salmoned Posts: 336 |
posted 05-24-2007 02:32 PM
I googled "zofingen silversmiths" and found this discussion :   That spoon and it's marks are quite similar. IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 05-24-2007 07:35 PM
Everyone is on the right track; definitely Swiss, and – as salmoned’s link suggests – Lausanne, not Zofingen. (Their city marks are quite similar as printed in most references, but in reality the Zofingen mark generally has two rows of vertical bars). The maker is Jean-Frédéric Schmidt, listed in Lausanne in 1793. Both the city mark and maker’s mark (complete with the little nick above the “F”) are photographed in Gruber’s Weltliches Silber; de Vevey’s Manuel des Orfèvres de Suisse Romande also illustrates these marks and mentions that Schmidt was originally from Heidelberg. Scheffler’s Goldschmiede am Main und Neckar, which covers Heidelberg, doesn’t list him there, but does have a Schmidt (no first name) in nearby Würzburg who was a master in 1777, originally from Mainz, and (probably) the son of prominent Mainz silversmith Johann Frantz Schmidt (b. Heidelberg, d. Mainz 1775); this unnamed Schmidt is almost certainly Jean-Frédéric (Johann Friedrich), later of Lausanne. I have no problem believing your spoon is early 19th - or even late 18th - century; the form is certainly correct in light of its Swiss origin . The standard of the Vaud canton (where Lausanne is located) at the time was 11 derniers, or .9166, slightly under sterling. A good buy, indeed. I’ve been running across an unusual amount of Swiss silver lately. The auction house where I work recently sold (note the past tense; not a violation of board rules, I trust) a very fine 18th century Bern tray, and I myself recently acquired two spoons, one 19th century Glarus, the other 18th century Zurich. I’ve grown quite fond of the robust heft and elegantly restrained design that seem to be characteristic of Swiss silver. IP: Logged |
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salmoned Posts: 336 |
posted 05-24-2007 09:39 PM
Marvelous! Seems this mystery has been solved. My family also hails from Heidelberg (enate). My appreciation of these humble spoons has grown considerably. IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 05-25-2007 03:50 PM
Good to know that this form goes that far back- most of the dateable examples I've seen have been later. IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 05-28-2009 10:52 PM
As I mention in my recent post in the thread Swiss Silver, part 3, a new book on Lausanne silver sheds some light on the maker of the spoon in this thread. The traditional attribution of this “FS” mark to Jean-Frédéric Schmidt, as in the Gruber and de Vevey references I mention, has been conclusively disproven. Rather, the mark is now known to be that of François Saunier-Miéville (1804-1876/77). François Saunier-Miéville was born in Nyon, a suburb of Geneva, but still part of Vaud, the same canton which contains Lausanne. He was the of son of expatriate French silversmith Louis-Marc-Samuel Saunier (1769-1845), but later added the surname of his wife and step-daughter when he married the young widow Marie Miéville. He worked as a silversmith for only a short time, from 1839 to about 1846. His output seems to have been primarily flatware, though some holloware is known; surviving documents from 1843 indicate that he was also an early practitioner of electroplating. In later life he worked as a salt factor, a doorman, and (by 1870) a jeweler. That the “FS” mark is Saunier-Miéville’s is confirmed by its appearance on some pieces alongside his surname in full. Jean-Frédéric Schmidt, on the other hand, is not mentioned in the Lausanne records after 1793, at which time he may have moved to the Netherlands. PS: Should not this thread be moved to the Continental forum? IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 05-29-2009 08:02 PM
Thanks, Scott, for moving this thread . . . and tidying up the old external link, I see. It bears mentioning that Lausanne spoon there – with the maker’s mark “PD” – has also long been the subject of mis-attribution, traditionally ascribed to the famous firm of Papus & Dautun: Elie Papus (1713-1793) & Pierre-Henry Dautun (1729-1803). However, Hörack’s L’Argenterie Lausannoise reveals that the mark is actually that of Jean-Philippe Delacour (1768-aft. 1824). Delacour was the son of silversmith Pierre Delacour, and apprenticed 1780/81 to Philippe Vernet (ca. 1748-1794). He established his own shop around 1790, but would inherit his master’s tools (and presumably his business) after the death Vernet’s widow, Françoise Rapillard, around 1809. Delacour retired sometime between 1814 and 1824, although his son, Marc-Philippe Delacour (1802-1842) would also become a silversmith, working ca. 1830-1842. Delacour was an excellent maker, and the high-quality of his Empire-era work has very much contributed to its continued attribution to Papus & Dautun. However, a careful study of the subtle differences between the late 18th century work of Papus Dautun (working ca. 1760-1793) and the early 19th century work of Philippe Delacour (working ca. 1790-1815) has led to a much better understanding of their respective marks. IP: Logged |
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salmoned Posts: 336 |
posted 06-17-2009 10:28 PM
The update is much appreciated. Was the purity standard different for this later period of manufacture? IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 06-19-2009 01:49 PM
No one really knows. Lausanne never had any sort of goldsmith's guild, nor did it enact any sort of civil precious metal control after its incorporation into the new canton of Vaud in 1803. In the 18th century, Lausanne was under the control of Bern (who were very much seen as occupiers). I should have stated that 11 deniers was at the time the norm, not the standard, for 10 deniers (.833) is also found, though far less frequently. Lausanne briefly became part of the French-contolled Helvetic Republic canton of Léman during the Napoléonic Era, but was never officially within a French Départment and not, therefore, under the control of the French Assay system. After 1803, since there was no civil control, Lausanne quality marks were applied by the maker. They thus vary greatly, of course, but most follow the French fashion, using the numerals "1" or "2" to indicate the first and second standard. The problem is, no one knows if this meant the Bern standards of .916 & .833, or the French standards of .950 and .800. How's that for a detailed yet utterly unhelpful answer? IP: Logged |
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salmoned Posts: 336 |
posted 06-26-2009 03:55 PM
Good enough! My density test suggests .800 or .833 (I can't reasonably distinguish the two), so I intend to record it as ~.800. Even the uncertainty adds to the story that will now travel with the spoons. Thanks again. [This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 06-26-2009).] IP: Logged |
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