posted 07-18-2006 04:14 AM            

Hi!

I have a pair of candelabras which I think are German and somewhere from 19th century. I would be interested to get this confirmed and also I would like to know the maker and the town. There is a mark with JW and 13 together. Thanks for any information in advance.

Regards,
Juhana

posted 08-04-2006 05:38 PM            

I blieve the "13" is a loth mark, a system for measuring silver content in the Hapsburg Empire (Austria, Hungary, parts of Poland, Romania, Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Croatia) prior to 1867 and in Germany prior to 1888. "13" Loth silver contained 81.25% pure silver. Usually the loth mark was in a crest with some sort of town or assay office mark, but I suspect that "JW" is a maker's mark. Is the mark above and to the right of the "JW/13" a symbol or just a wear mark?

Since Poland did not exist as an independent state at the time your candlesticks were made, they must have come from either the Austrian or Prussian controlled areas. Polish silver from the Russian controlled areas would have had Russian markings. You indicated "Poland or Hungary" as the point of orign, which suggests the Hapsburg lands, but I would need a town or region name to be sure.
Either Blackstone and/or Sazikov, both of whom have more detailed references than I do may be able to help you further id these lovely pieces.

Good luck,
Tom

posted 08-05-2006 03:10 AM            

The mark beside JW/13 is just silver tarnish, no other marks have been found on the candlelabres.

It sounds right as you say that the candlelabres would be either from the Hapsburg Empire so somewhere from Austria-Hungary area or then the Prussian area. Your comment about the russian area is also very valid. There is no town mark so we have to go from the maker.

One thing that I didn't remember to mention is that it has been indicated to me that the JW would be Johann Weiss or Ignaz Weiss but I don't know to which one the mark is dedicated and in which town or region they worked. If anybody would have any idea of this I would appreciate this knowledge very much.

posted 08-05-2006 11:24 PM            

My own persistent thought would be to measure them. If the measurements come out fairly evenly, like whole numbers, in metric dimensions, this would indicate post 1800 production. If they don't work that way it would indicate earlier work. Unless these were copies of a much older pair.

Are they exactly identical or are there little differences that would indicate hand work? Are the pieces cast or hammered? How many separate pieces go into making up the ensamble?

Lastly, what is the base weighted with? The trick with candlelabre is that they must be bottom heavy. That way they are less likely to tip over and set the house on fire. Is the bottome filled with lead or wax or carved wood or what?

posted 08-06-2006 06:28 AM            

I agree that they could also be from somewhere of todays area of Germany. As I mentioned a silver specialist estimated them to be from somewhere of todays area of Poland or Hungary which would mean the Austria-Hungary empire or Prussia. The maker could be the Johann Weiss from Vienna. Do you know if he also did silver objects. I also agree that it is not the 19th century Austria-Hungary type of mark. As you said it could also be some other Weiss from the area. As there were so many small German states it could be from somewhere of them. Do you know what kind of marks where used in Prussia during those times. Also any other German state in those times. Do you know if papers of hallmarks, makers etc. have been destroyed during the wars (like WW I and WW II) in those areas like it happened much in Russia during the revolution so we don't have today exact knowledge of all the hallmarks and silversmith marks before WW I (19th, 18th etc centuries).

The measurements are: hight 52 cm x width 37 cm. There is a slight (1 cm) difference in the width which you might also be able to see from the picture. In the middle of the candlelabres the leaves are closer to the center of the candlelabre on the right. I guess this would also mean that they are partly handmade. Of course they could have also been tipped over but that would mean it would have happened from both sides the same way and that don't side very logical. The candlelabres are hollow from inside. They have not been filled with anything so they stand on their own weight well. I don't have anything with which weight them but they are of ok weight, not very heavy but not very light.

The candlelabre can be used with either one, two or three candles. With one candle you can separate the lower part and use it as a normal candlestick. With two candles you can insert a separate detail (which is not in the picture) to the middle candle holder. And then of course with three candles. This is of course economical and I guess in the 19th century this was still taken into account as candles where expensive. You can also take away the three candle holders and their bases where wax drips.

I would say that for me the mentioned around 1860 would sound accurate. From the candlelabres you can clearly see the patina on the surface of the silver from years of cleaning and I would say that they are at least partly machine made which during that time was already in use. You can see also that there are parts which have been soldered together by hand. In those times also the styles were re-used so that would also be right.

I welcome futher ideas and I guess the mark and maker is the key as with that the area/town and exact period of the candlelabres could be defined.

posted 08-06-2006 01:07 PM            

A great deal was lost to art, history, and culture during both World Wars, but I am not aware of any central repository of silver hallmark information being destroyed (of if one even existed in the first place). As you will see if you puruse the Continental forum, a great deal of information on makers and their marks is either missing or not compiled in one easy reference.

Tom

posted 08-06-2006 11:33 PM            

The marks on silver were sometimes required by a town guild or a silversmith's association. Sometimes they were required by law. As far as I know, Russian markings on Polish made silver are rather scarce. Instead there was an erratic local system that varied all over the place. Polish silver was sold to Polish speaking people where ever they lived. The trade was conducted by traditional smuggling. And the records were lost during the wars.

JW seems too popular a set of initials to be quickly narrowed down. The work here is quite good, and probably not from a one man shop. It does not look like any of the elements were purchased; they appear to be the work of one maker.

posted 08-07-2006 03:01 AM            

I would assume that the candlelabres were made to a higher civial servant or military person and the producer would be at least a little bigger firm and most likely in a bigger town in for instance the German states.

I agree that the parts look to have been made by the same person.

I have been reading the other threads on the continental silver and I am surprised that there seems not to be litterature or it is not well known the silver markings in those areas. I would assume that there would have been made investigations and books of hallmarkings in those countries if the information would be available. If there were these books and information I would assume some of the persons in this forum would have knowledge of.

Thanks for your replies. It might be that the knowledge of the mark have disappeared during the history of those areas, it might also come up someday, we will see. I let you know in this forum if I get some additional knowledge.

posted 08-07-2006 02:48 PM            

Dale,

I am curious about your conclusion that "Russian marks on Polish silver are rare". Warsaw had its own town mark in the Russian imperial hallmarking system.

Tom

posted 08-08-2006 03:16 AM            

Thanks Dorothea for participating in this thread and the happy occasions that you had a centerpiece by the same maker. The best with this forum is the knowledge sharing and the possibility of an other with a silver object by the same person who by previous research exactly knows the origin of the silver object and the maker.

Thanks once again.