posted 12-24-2006 05:32 PM            

New to this forum (as you can tell by me posting here).

I am particularly interested in Russian and Dutch silver, and am slowly amassing a small collection.

In my early years as a collector I bought this "Russian sweetbox", which I now believe is Persian (You live and learn, eh?! But anyway, it's a joy to own : it was a sweet price to begin with, and I keep my after-dinner mints in it)

It's 14cm square (5.5 inches), and the inside is gilded. On the inside of the lid it is marked as shown in the photo (the mark which looks like "IP" also appears "very rubbed" on the bottom of the box)

Is this box indeed "Persian"? "84" I'm sure stands for the purity of the silver, but what do the other marks mean? What would be the (approximate) age of this box? What was its usage originally (from the gilded interior I would assume something to do with food?)

Many thanks for your help!
JW

posted 12-29-2006 11:48 AM            

Welcome to the forum. I am inclined to agree with Vathek. The 84 and IP suggest Russian origin and the other mark is not what Tardy lists for Persia.

Russia did control northern Persia from 1907 through the revolution as part of a deal struck with Britain.

While it could be a Koran box, that would depend on its other dimensions. It is deep enough, but is it long and wide enough?

You mentioned you are just begining and have an interest in Dutch and Russian silver. You might look for a copy of Tardy's, "International Hallmarks on Silver," which is relatively inexpensive and a good place to start.

Tom

posted 12-29-2006 12:56 PM            

To the best of my knowledge there's liitle to no work done on silver-marking in these occupied regions.

It's also possible that this comes from one of the (formerly) Russian-controlled nations that neighbor(ed) Persia. For example, Postnekova-Loseva et al. show a number of Arabic marks from Tbilisi (in Georgia, using current names; formerly Tiflis), although none seem to match the mark shown here. Armenia or Azerbaijan might also be possibilities.

PS: to me the dimensions don't seem right for a Koran box, as most such I've seen don't seem to be square. A lovely box, though!

posted 12-29-2006 04:25 PM            

Tom, I've been checking alphabets too, and I believe the mark is in Arabic, and reads (from right to left) : � r b� � (but don't quote me on that! I could be horribly wrong you know.)

And I would agree with the sentiment that this is not a "Koran-box". Just doesn't feel right, it's too shallow (total height is appr 1 inch/2.5 cm), and also from what I see on Internet Koran-boxes have a "book-look" to them., whereas this box is perfectly square.

Also, had a closer look at the "IP" mark, and to me it looks like a stretched capital letter H, with an upside-down square letter J in it, making it look a little like a capital H F and I stuck together. (if that makes any sense)

posted 12-29-2006 05:16 PM            

The Cyrillic letters are blurred in the photo, so I cannot really tell. Google "cyrillic alphabet" and you should get a site with the old and new script. I am almost certainly the letters are the name of the silversmith. If the other mark is indeed Arabic, that would strengthen FW's case for a former Soviet republic in the Caucusus or central Asia. If it came from Persia, even the Russian occupied area, I cannot imagine why the mark would not be in Farsi.

I notice you live in the Hague. I spent a wonderful fall teaching at the KMA in Breda a few years ago. Lets see, the weather should be cold, wet, and foggy-right?

posted 12-29-2006 05:50 PM            

Sorry if I've mislead you, but hat "HJ" mark is definitely not Russian. I can read Cyrillic, and this in no way is Cyrillic. If I didn't know any better I would say it was a "stylized Chinese character"

The "Arabic" mark does look Arabic to me, not Farsi or Ottoman Turkish. The latter two alphabets miss the "dots"

The idea grows on me that this box is actually from Central Asia, from the �stans (Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan etc), but then I can not corroborate that with any hard evidence.

It's a small world, eh?! Teaching "our boys" at the Koninklijke Militaire Academie in Breda. You must have teached them well as "our boys" in Afghanistan have been voted "People of the year" by the Dutch.

As for the weather : it was cold and foggy (didn't see the sun for a week or so), but now we're back to windy weather, rain is on its way, and temps are up to a balmy 11 C/ 60 F.

And after that short intermission now back to our scheduled programming.

JW

posted 12-29-2006 06:22 PM            

Happy New Year,
Tom

posted 01-15-2007 04:54 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by tmockait:
This question is going to drive me crazy . . . but it is fun.

---

Tom, I know the feeling!

This little box is just sitting on my desk, laughing at me no doubt, amused by my frantic efforts to find out where it came from. If only it could talk, eh?!

Anyway, on one of my searches I unearthed this picture on the Internet, showing the marks in much greater detail. Hope it jogs someone's memory! The bottom two marks are exactly the same as on the box. The upper (master's ?) mark I'm not sure of, it sure looks a lot like the mark on my box, but that's just too worn to make a positive identification.