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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 Could anyone identify the marks on this spoon?
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| Author | Topic: Could anyone identify the marks on this spoon? |
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nautilusjv Posts: 253 |
posted 12-31-2008 05:04 PM
  
[26-1776] This spoon is part of a set of 6 which belonged to my great aunt. She always referred to them as coin silver, but they do not have any coin silver markings that I have seen. I am sure they are not coin silver. The markings on the back are a "12" I believe and the initials "LA". Any information would be greatly appreciated. Happy New Year! IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 12-31-2008 05:54 PM
That is a difficult one. Where does your family come from? 12 could be Germany. Pattern could be danish, nordic, german, polish or like. A possibility is a danish silversmith. Laust Andersen born 1795 married 1834 died 1849. That could correspond with patern and mark. His is not identical but his marking is LA. This is only a suggestion. Family tradition could verify or say never. The marking is corresponding to danish tradition outside Copenhagen and the 3 to 4 largest cities. Laust Andersen work as a country silversmith in the area around Tønder (denmark) a small village called Skærbæk. There this marking could be used. As it is also possible in germany. But remember it is only a suggest - maybe somebody else have a better match. IP: Logged |
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nautilusjv Posts: 253 |
posted 12-31-2008 07:28 PM
Thanks Hosedk for a starting point of inquiry. My great aunt was indeed born in Germany in Braunfels, but I don't believe these spoons began with the family there, but rather she bought them at some point in her life. IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 01-01-2009 09:43 AM
I that case I dont believ in Denmark. We are in the southern/western part of germany. In that case we have to search for a master from around mid 1800 with those initials. My old Rosenberg has noone with LA - but he dont have that many examples. So perhabs someone with a new book. IP: Logged |
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nautilusjv Posts: 253 |
posted 01-02-2009 02:24 PM
Thank you Hosedk for your thoughts on the spoon. Maybe someone else will recognise the marks. At least now I think it is reasonable to believe they are German which is more information than I had before. Thanks Scott in regards to the image size problem. I downloaded Faststone to reduce the original images which were too large. According to that program, I had reduced it to the right size, twice. I wonder though does something happen size wise when you transfer the picture to the hosting site. I use photobucket. The pics posted now I reduced on photobucket, so I am generally confused. Anyone with any knowledge in using Faststone or some tips would be appreciated as well. Thanks again. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 01-02-2009 04:29 PM
Time for me to put out one of my favorite theories. I've said this before, so let me bore you all again. Some of the silver we see with European type marks was actually made in the US by immigrant silversmiths who continued working in their accustomed styles using stamps they brought with them. This idea has always seemed to me to solve a great many issues. The immigrant silversmith would have worked in a jewelry store with a clientele of his fellow immigrants. These people would have preferred to buy silver with marks they were familiar with. So, on request he would produce a traditional style piece with the marks used back in the old country. Any objections to this? IP: Logged |
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nautilusjv Posts: 253 |
posted 01-02-2009 04:54 PM
That is a very interesting point Dale and it does make sense, but if so does that end the inquiry there? As I stated previously, I'm almost positive that these spoons did not come with my family when the emigrated to the US in the late 1920's. I'm sure my great aunt purchased them along the way. Unfortunately, there is no one still alive to ask. Also, in looking for the marks online, the "12" is a German mark used prior to 1886 indicating 75% silver. Could we assume that Dale's assertion is correct and that this spoon even if made in America was made prior to 1886 or is asserting a date range for the spoon not possible according to Dale's theory i.e. our immigrant silversmith came to the US prior to 1886 but worked long after that. IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 01-02-2009 05:20 PM
Keep on boring Dale (Positively meant),sometimes I find some names of Norwegian silversmiths who migrated to the USA. Names which could be found at some shiplists, for instance late 19th century or early 20th century. I didn't knew about them using their own marks, which is always good to know. A lot of people moved those days to start a new life and bring their knowledge along with them. [This message has been edited by silverhunter (edited 01-02-2009).] IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 01-02-2009 05:30 PM
Having grown up in the twilight of an immigrant community, there is a lot of sentiment and remembering involved. So, it seems entirely possible that the use of outdated marks was part of that remembrance. Once, over 30 years ago, I was purchasing things from a lady. I asked if she had silver for sale. She showed me some and said that those she would keep had been made for her by her father. They were very nice items, with some sort of Austro Hungarian marks. Her father had come from Bohemia and been a jeweler/silversmith. From his store in, AIR, Berwyn IL he made up spoons and servers with the marks he had learned to use back in Bohemia. These were the marks his customers were familiar with. The problem is we know almost nothing about the immigrant smiths who worked in ethnic communities. There are tidbits of information scattered here and there. The Westerheim Museum in Decorah IA has a lot of traditional Norwegian silver jewelry. Some was made in Norway and some made in IA, MN, WI, IL and the rest of the Upper Midwest. This is one of the areas of silver that needs a lot of research. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 01-02-2009 08:02 PM
I do not recognize the markings, but I would suggest that trying to date it will be difficult until you know what the markings are. The pattern has been around for a very long time and it has been made in one variation or another by many smiths and silverware companies ever since. Also, if it is European, the term coin silver would be a misnomer. Coin silver applies to American silver made from old silverware, holloware, coins and anything else a smith could get their hands on to melt down to make into some new silverware. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 01-02-2009 09:36 PM
Found on the Internet, similar 12 quote: IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 01-02-2009 11:09 PM
12 appears as a marking in numerous countries. Most common is Lothige Standard or Loth silver fineness standard markings:
13 loth = 812/1000 fine silver 14 loth = 875/1000 fine silver 15 loth = 937/1000 fine silver 16 loth = 999/1000 fine silver IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 01-03-2009 02:01 AM
I am reminded of the old medical school adage that when you hear hoofbeats, you should think of horses, not zebras. I see no reason to think these spoons are anything other than what they appear to be: mid-19th century German/Polish 12 lot (.750) silver. I can find no “LA” mark which matches well, but even if I could, it might not help much; it is notoriously difficult to identify the maker of pieces marked thus (i.e., just the lothige and initials). Barring more distinctive marks, a helpful inscription, or a sturdier provenance to help pin it down, finding a maker with the proper initials or even good match for the mark would still probably result in only a tentative attribution; who knows how many other “LA’s” might be out there? Still, from what I can see, the style of the spoons puts them firmly in the 19th century, and the style of marking rules out the many European countries where state-controlled marking was practiced (including Austria-Hungary). That leaves Germany and the formerly Prussian parts of Poland. If you are certain that your great aunt purchased these spoons here in the US, then the likeliest explanation to me is that they were brought here by one of the other 4.98 million German emigrants to this country between 1850 and 1920 and subsequently purchased by her on the secondary market. I find it much easier to believe that a dealer didn’t know the difference between American coin and European 12 lot silver (some still don’t) than that there were still old country zebras – um, silversmiths – here using 12 lot marking in the late 1920s. IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 01-03-2009 11:41 AM
I fully agree with Blackstone. No silversmith had all the stamps. He had his mark - perhabs he has the 12 mark but definetly he did not have an Austrian silvermark. A city mark or the like. Also remember silver=money. Therefor they used silver buttons, spoons etc. a way to save money and get something here and now. A man emigrating to USA would sell all his belongings - a house, a farm, his cattle, horses, ducks whatever - his furniture everything. How would you most easy transport your valuables. Bringing as much silverware as you could - remember people traded - you give me 2 ducks and I give you a sheep. This natually depends upon timeframe - I know that around 1900 that was not the case - but around 1850 and before? And for Dale - yes if a silversmith emigrated. I also think taht he would bring his marks and continue using them - but the amount of silver they produced is only a small amount compared to import by fellow imigrants. And that is only if he was peration his own business - not if he worked for someone else. [This message has been edited by Hose_dk (edited 01-03-2009).] IP: Logged |
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