posted 01-28-2005 01:50 PM            

I have in my possession a Charm Bracelet with charms from around the world.

It looks as if the original owner collected the charms from European places they visited.

A few of the pieces have a mark of:
six sided shape with CHN in it and 800 either above or below the symbol.

Another set of pieces have a ROMA 800 and ROMA 008.

Does anyone have any idea what those mean?

posted 01-28-2005 07:21 PM            

The way you are putting this implies that it is solid silver (presumably Italian).

Do you have any documentation on the marking standards for Italian jewellery? I am not at all familiar with jewellery, but if this were any other kind of object, i.e. flatware or holloware, then without the requisite official marks it would have to be considered to not be silver (probably plated).

Can you share your sources?

posted 01-28-2005 09:43 PM            

In the modern era numbers like 800 were adopted to inidcate that a piece is 80% silver. The word "sterling" referes to silver that is 92.5% pure silver, and so it goes. These markings have been established by international agreements.

As for your barcelet, I can do no more than guess at its origin without a photo. It does make sense, though, that the part labelled "Roma" is Italian, but there is no guarantee.

There are too many books on this subject to list them. Scan the forum which contains many titles or do an "antique silver" search at any libary.

posted 01-28-2005 10:06 PM            

Second, you are missing the point of my question. How can you know that the item is of .800 solid silver without knowing the marking standard for the particular kind of article under consideration? In Italian silverware the presence of a number '800' without the corresponding official mark generally does not mean that the article is made of silver. The only exception from the legal requirement of a proper mark that I am aware of is for items of less than 1 gram.

It may be that there are other exceptions for jewellery but I have been unable to find any documentation. If you know of any then please quote it. If you don't have any then it would be more prudent and more helpful to the person making the inquiry to point out the uncertainty.

Facile, of the top of the head, unsupportable answers do not enhance the forum.

posted 01-28-2005 10:38 PM            

Sorry I got you confused with arg(um)entum. I hope some of this is useful to you.

posted 01-28-2005 11:48 PM            

Tgds,

posted 01-29-2005 12:52 AM            

My point, as inadequately expressed as it may have been, was and is, that Roma and '800' together do not amount to a valid designation of silver of .800 fineness.

Let me repeat: the Italian laws governing silver require that objects sold as silver of a given fineness (.800 is one of the standards) be marked with an official mark the makeup of which has been discussed by others in several threads. It is fairly common to encounter Italian ware that is stamped '800' but without the official mark; this is then only silver plated. Hence, to refer to an item showing only "ROMA" and "800" as having ".. a purity mark in parts per 1000" is unwarranted unless, as I stated, there is an exception from this law for jewelery. There may be one but I have not found any reference to it. And unless you have a documentation of such an exception then the basic rules must assume to apply.

Therefore, in the absence of physical examination the prudent conclusion is that the item may be silverplated, rather than solid silver of '800' fineness.

posted 01-29-2005 09:38 PM            

"Works in precious metals manufactured and marketed in the territory of the Republic must have one of the authorized standards of fineness and must bear the indicator of fineness and the identification mark." (The wording indicates that exported articles are exempt from marking; note "manufactured and marketed". Note, too, that Tardy, regarding and even earlier 1934 Italian law, states: "Products for export are free from control." [Tardy, p. 294])

However:

"It is prohibited to affix any indication of fineness, in part per thousands or in carats, or any other indication liable to cause mistakes to objects in metals different from precious metals, also if gold plated, silver-plated or plated."

And:

"Objects constituted of base metals with gold covering must be marked with the word "dorato"[golden] or the terms "placcato" [plated] or "laminato" [laminated], followed by the symbol Au [gold]; such terms must be followed by the respective symbols Pt, Pd, or Ag, for objects covered with platinum, palladium and silver."

It's worth mentioning here that since the aforementioned 1934 law, assay in Italy has been facultative. That is, manufacturers are required to themselves affix their official mark as issued by the Chamber of Commerce and which contains both the fineness and their registry number, but they are not required to submit their wares to any official assay office for testing. They may do so if they choose - they rarely do - and there is a special mark for this.

I offer all this only as documentation, not any sort of argument. I agree that a simple "Roma 800" mark means nothing. There's no proof of any sort that an item so marked was made in Italy or is made of silver. I, too, have found items marked "800" that were plate or base metal - but I doubt they were Italian. I suppose an Italian manufacturer could try to argue that so long as he exported something out of Italy, he could use "indication of fineness, in part per thousands . . . liable to cause mistakes." However, given the strictness of Italian law, I doubt there would be many willing to risk it.

posted 01-29-2005 10:07 PM            

My only concern is that after this lively exchange poor Monalysee has probably sold the bracelet, stopped collecting silver and changed her e-mail address!

posted 01-30-2005 10:08 AM            

As for the 'Roma 800', we seem all to be in harmonious agreement on that at least - so no more about it!

But there is one point I want to take up with you. It surprises me that you downplay Italy as the source of wares with spurious 800 markings. I had over time come to suspect that much of it came from there based on general background noise which I can't identify any more. But this has been reinforced by the 'ARG 800' stuff which often points in that direction. For one, I recall several such items on eBay with either pieces stamped 'Italy' or in boxes with Italian retailers' names. I remember only a single item with a tenuous potential link to another country. More telling, is the fact that a number of Italian manufacturers' and retailers' sites which contain brief summaries of current marking requirements, also include specific warnings against ARG800 and ARG1000. I have not noticed such warnings on sites in any other country. So I thought it fair to concluded that the warnings occur where the problem is the most prevalent.

If you have other information about the origin of these things then I'd just love for you to share that as well.

posted 01-30-2005 05:42 PM            

(1) yes to this; but

(2) isn't that simple.
A decreasing number of countries use government assayers for normal volume production. As Blakstone pointed out in the Italian case, manufacturers there apply the national mark themselves. The same thing applies to a good number of other countries as well.

In addition you have to distinguish two kinds of marks: national guarantee marks and responsibility marks.

National guarantee marks such as the British lion, the Minerve or the German moon and crown can be applied by either a government agency or the manufacturer himself; this varies from country to country. The responsibility mark identifies the maker and is applied by him where he also applies the national mark; it serves as his guarantee that the standard of that mark is met.

Other countries dispense with the national mark and the maker's responsibility mark alone is what you must go by.

It all boils down to Number (1) above: You need to know the law, marks and practices of a country. With a piece in hand, of course, one can use a whole bunch of additional clues.

posted 01-30-2005 10:04 PM            

My guess is that these marks were made to deceive, but that's just opinion. The pieces themselves are double struck King's Pattern flatware, heavy but poorly struck (shallow dies), and with rough edges. I cannot decipher the mark beyond the "800 ARG".