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Author	Topic: Strange Hallmark
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 04-25-2005 05:50 PM [08-0310] Here is a strange hallmark (?) on a small FP ladle. It looks like Brit provincial, but I surely can't find a crescent moon and star reference, nor do I remember seeing such anywhere. Then again, I guess Ankara could be considered as very provincial! Any recognition? Silverplate again? IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-01-2005 11:04 PM Okay, I found it. Looked right over the answer once again. I could spell better when I was fifteen, too. IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-02-2005 10:29 AM Perhaps you'd care to enlighten the peanut gallery? IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-02-2005 01:23 PM Embarrassingly, I shouldn't have needed to ask in the first place, if I had 1) taken the seller's interpretation of the maker's mark, or 2) seen the crescent moon and star hallmark the first time I scanned for it. I plead Alzheimer's. Anyway, the answer per my poor, old Wyler's is (drum roll, please): W. H. T?????? (unidentified maker) of Greenock, c.1820. There is a similar mark attributed to Wm.H. Townsend in Dublin as applied to copper-plate in the period of 1813-1850. Looks somewhat like the inverse story to the copper-plate WC mark and Wm. Cummins of Dublin. IP: Logged
Scotia Posts: 125 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 05-02-2005 02:01 PM Hi again, Sorry if I landed you in it. The fouled anchor is similar to the Greenock mark, but the other marks look like fantasy marks. Possibly Tinkers Marks? IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-02-2005 02:12 PM quote: Anyway, the answer per my poor, old Wyler's is (drum roll, please): W. H. T?????? (unidentified maker) of Greenock, c.1820. I haven't played Monopoly in years, but I think the card you drew reads "Go to Jail." There is no such Scottish maker or mark in Turner or Jackson III. You have had your knuckles rapped for relying on Wyler before. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 05-02-2005).] IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-02-2005 02:38 PM So, the concensus is that these marks are faked, it seems. Hmmm, let me think out loud, so it would seem that someone went to the effort to replicate three punches shown in Wyler, but representing a maker not shown in Jackson, plus went to the effort of adding a fourth mark unshown in Wyler, and additionally chose to replicate the more complicated fouled anchor punch when the simpler unfouled anchor punch would have done just as well or better, just to fool everyone? Wow, people are more devious than I thought! Shows a whole lot more effort and expertise than intelligence, if true. When I receive the ladle, I'll try to get a better photo, plus check for patina, removals, overstrikes, etc. Ya pays yer money and takes yer choice! P.S. (Edit to Scotia): Just going by the photo I have, the marks seem to be a reasonable fit to Wyler, subject, of course, to reassessment when the item is received in hand. I certainly wouldn't describe the crescent moon and star punch as a fantasy mark based on current information. P.S. (Edit to swarter): As indicated above, I did not purchase this item based on Wyler, as I identified it in that text only after the auction had closed. If indeed it turns out to be a fake, it will be worth the funds spent just to have one such item in my collection. So my knuckles feel just fine! IP: Logged
adelapt Posts: 418 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-02-2005 06:19 PM This is another case of where a mistake in the original Jackson was confounded by being picked up and blindly reused by Wyler. Don't have the refs by me now, but try looking at Twentyman marks, Cape and Anglo-Indian, probably the former. IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-02-2005 09:00 PM Well, you got me, "Twentyman marks, Cape and Anglo-Indian" don't ring a bell. However, I finally broke down and ordered a brand new copy of what I hope is the most recent edition Jackson's. It should arrive at about the same time as the ladle. Stand by! IP: Logged
ozfred Posts: 87 Registered: Sep 2002	posted 05-02-2005 11:00 PM The book is Wynyard Wilkinson's "Indian Colonial Silver, European Silversmiths in India (1790-1860) and their Marks." It may be difficult to find as it was a limited edition of 1000 in 1973. "WHT" is William Henry Twentyman, active after 1810 and died in 1842 in Calcutta. IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-02-2005 11:44 PM Wow, here I am "breaking down" to buy the most recent edition of Pickford to finally replace my trusty (?) Wyler, and you guys are casually conversing about a text on East Indian Silver (to be sure, it is definitely on my "To Buy List", scheduled for purchase in, oh, say, about 2015 or so). Thus happily ignorant, I went ahead and bid on the virtual auction ladle, not really knowing what the hallmarks represented, but having a gut feeling that they are not of silverplate (albeit not a bulletproof track record here, recently), but possibly Brit provincial or maybe even Brit Empire (heavy eastern flavor with the crescent moon and star), and then post-auction find the Wyler Greenock attribution (Yay!), but then am told this is bushwa, not true (Boo!), it isn't even Brit Isle, but it may be East Indian. Man, I am so BUMMED OUT!!! Well, it's not in hand, yet, and there's many a slip twixt cup and the lip, especially where ether auctions are concerned. Who knows what it finally turns out to be, if and when it arrives, but it's been worth the price of admission just to this point. Thanks for the enlightenment!!! IP: Logged
adelapt Posts: 418 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-03-2005 12:48 AM Nihonto: this isn't East Indian or West Indian, or even Red Indian, it's the Indian of Nehru & Ghandi, adjacent to Mount Everest! The current version of the book Ozfred mentioned is "The Makers of Indian Colonial Silver..." by Wynyard Wilkinson. IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-03-2005 01:01 AM adelapt: "Nihonto: this isn't East Indian or West Indian, or even Red Indian, it's the Indian of Nehru & Ghandi, adjacent to Mount Everest!" Uh, say wha? One of us is seriously confused. I await enlightenment. IP: Logged
adelapt Posts: 418 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-03-2005 01:10 AM Who wouldn't be confused when we have, or had, the Dutch East Indies, the British West Indies, and Columbus' red indians on what turned out to be North America. I do hope you get your ladle (it'll keep you in after dinner stories), a great souvenir of what used to be the British Empire. IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-03-2005 01:41 AM Well, around my parochial neighborhood, "East India" and "East Indian" has always referred to the country located approximately 75 degrees longitude and 20 degrees North latitude. I had no idea how American red Indians got wrapped into it. IP: Logged
asheland Posts: 935 Registered: Nov 2003	posted 05-03-2005 09:29 PM This ladle sounds interesting, can you post a picture of it? Does it have any engravings? asheland IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-06-2005 01:19 AM Thank you for you interest, asheland. Per the seller (eight thousand miles away), as of today "the check's in the mail". On the internet phuzzy fotos (which always make this kind of purchase akin to an Easter egg hunt), there is no engraving on top, only the maker's mark plus the pseudo-hallmarks on the reverse side. Assuming all goes well, I will be very happy upon its arrival - this was a real leap of faith, "educated guess" (= shot in the dark?) kind of purchase. Overall, I'm still positive on these gambles, but have taken some real hits - sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you. Wanna buy a US colonial period silver-plated aluminum ladle, cheap? IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-06-2005 12:12 PM quote: Man, I am so BUMMED OUT!!! . . . Wanna buy a US colonial period silver-plated aluminum ladle, cheap? 1) It is not US Colonial period 2) It is not silver plated 3) It is not aluminum 4) Buying is was not a mistake. I don't know what you are crying about. British Colonial silver is much scarcer than American, English, or Scottish silver, and is highly collectable. If this were my "mistake" I would be crying, too -- all the way to the bank! The one who should be crying is the seller, who didn't know what he had, and not the buyer who dumb-lucked out on his instincts, which were far better than he realizes. IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-06-2005 01:20 PM Sorry for the miscommunication, I was just being facetious. My tongue-in-cheek sale offer was not for this ladle in question, but rather for an unmarked one bought a few months back, where I saw on the very fuzzy foto a V-shaped drop along with a Celtic point, and gambled it was American late colonial or possibly early 19th century Continental. Snake eyes! Modern silver plated, aluminum base, no less! It was admittedly a low probability shot, and the lesson in humility was under $15. Hey, they can't all be gems!!! To be sure, I saw better odds on this current ladle. [This message has been edited by nihontochicken (edited 05-06-2005).] IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2377 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 05-06-2005 04:00 PM Wynyard Wilkinson also has a book entitled �The Makers of Indian Colonial Silver: A Register of European Goldsmiths, Silversmiths, Jewelers, Watchmakers and Clockmakers in India and Their Marks 1760-1806. This was published in 1987. The Indian Colonial Silver; European Silversmiths in India (1790-1860) and their Marks� was published in 1973. Does the book published in 1987 contain everything that the 1973 includes? IP: Logged
jersey Posts: 1203 Registered: Feb 2005	posted 05-06-2005 04:45 PM FYI! The book Wynyard Wilkinson's "Indian Colonial Silver, European Silversmiths in India (1790-1860) is available. Do a used book seller search for it. It is pricey, but if you need it I guess it would be worth it. Hope this helps. IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-06-2005 09:49 PM Thanks, I saw a handful of copies for sale a few days ago, lowest price at $175, out of my league. I put in a lowball offer, don't expect to hear back. IP: Logged
Silver Lyon Posts: 363 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 05-07-2005 03:15 PM Indian Colonial Silver (1973) is full of pictures and very basic information about the leading makers. It is good for identifying the hybrid Indian Colonial forms. The Makers of Indian Colonial Silver (1987) is a register of some 800 makers (and watchmakers, engravers etc.) showing marks of all those discovered before 1987 plus biographical details of all. They make a good pair for millionaires!! Otherwise the second volume has all that anyone really needs! IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-11-2005 03:26 PM Thanks to all for the information you have provided. The ladle arrived a couple of days ago. Here are some scans per your request, asheland: The ladle measures 15.6 cm length, 5.2 cm bowl width, approx. 1.6 tr. oz., seems heavier, is substantially constructed, thick bowl, perhaps the slightest remains of bowl gilding, no crest or mono, no indication of any removal. Wynyard Wilkinson has contacted me and generously offered to provide me some information on Twentyman that I may share with the board when received. IP: Logged
asheland Posts: 935 Registered: Nov 2003	posted 05-12-2005 08:19 AM Thanks for the pictures, that looks like a very nice quality ladle! I assume handmade, it looks 1820ish. asheland IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-12-2005 02:33 PM The file generously sent by Wynyard Wilkinson arrived, apparently after some difficulty in transmission. No wonder, it was huge and finally locked up my old computer! I shrank it by converting full color to gray scale, but it is still way too big to post to the forum. I have copied the marks for comparison to those on my piece. Per Mr. Wilkinson's post, "the last mark is a �tally mark� � a letter in Nagri script that identified the particular maker in the workshop responsible for making your ladle." Here are some of the high points of the William Henry Twentyman bio (again with the gracious consent of the author): Lived Nov. 8, 1793 to Apr. 20, 1842 Arrived in India in 1810 1810-1815 apprenticed to John Hunt 1815 sets up his own business 1818 joined by George Havell Homser, becomes Twentyman & Co. 1821 forms Twentyman, Beck & Co. partnership with Weldon Wheatly Beck, and the maker�s mark becomes TB&Co. with a pseudo lion. 1823 Beck partnership dissolved. 1824 new partnership formed with George Havell Homser and William Warburton. *1829 partnership with Homser dissolved. My thanks again to Mr. Wilkinson for sharing his research. (Note, Mr. Wilkinson thanked me for including a link to the Silver Forum in my post to him, so perhaps he might join the group, which would be most helpful.) IP: Logged

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