posted 09-27-2006 01:11 AM            

I am a first time member and have been searching this site as suggested before posting my question. Please excuse me if my question is redundant of anything already available.

I love collecting silver and have been doing this for about a year now, I have bought several hundred dollars worth of silver books on hallmarks etc, checked out numerous books from the library and searched the web trying to educate myself. Thank you for having this forum site.

As a collector, I am looking for the "Old Sheffield Plate" items and have bought things thinking they are OSP and then find that they are not. Is or are there any "technical" guides that help one determine if an unmarked silver item is OSP because purportedly 75% of the OSP produced was unmarked. The books say that OSP could have seams inside pots, could have tin in places where silver would not show, and has applied edges to hide the layers of sterling, copper, and third metal either another layer of sterling or tin or pewter? But besides this, what other telling signs would indicate an item is OSP based upon its construction? for example how were handles on trays applied? Were knobs and handles made from SOLID sterling either casted or formed and then bolted on? Would a soldered on handle indicate silverplate? Would a silverplated handle and what appears to be an OSP body indicate a transitional period piece (after electroplating came into existance)or would it indicate that the whole item is silverplate and NOT OSP?

How can you tell if an electroplated item is really an OLDER OSP item has been electroplated?

Does anyone have some academic pictures of OSP items with detail shots of how the edges are treated to hide the seams, how ornamentation is treated? How handles are soldered on or whether they would never be soldered?

Is there a scientific test that would indicate OSP vs silver electroplate?

How thick was the layer of sterling in the OSP process?

Thank you in advance...Hilda

posted 09-27-2006 06:09 PM            

If I would collect OSP I would only buy pieces which are marked, since your monetary outlay is better protected this way.

posted 09-27-2006 08:31 PM            

First, familiarize yourself with styles. Even though old styles are revived, the relatively short-lived OSP popularity and its near-immediate replacement with electroplating make a thorough knowledge of popular styles the first tool in your arsenal.

Second, look for the "lip" on edges: this is created when either the silver sheet has been cut on a bevel and folded back on itself, or a thin, flat wire is applied over a straight cut edge to hid the copper. As a rule of thumb, the longer this lip, the older the piece.

Third, check handles and feet. On Sheffield Plate, these are generally made of two die-stamped halves, soldered together and filled with lead; look for the seam. Electroplated pieces can be plated in the round, and are therefore often cast that way. (And avoid pieces that are damaged here, with the lead exposed and/or coming out of the seam; they are nigh impossible to repair!) Some pieces do have (invariably detachable) sterling handles, but these will always have the proper hallmarks.

Fourth, check the decoration. Since excessive engraving would cut into the copper underlay, OSP surface decoration is often limited to flat-chasing or shallow engraving. Electroplating can be done after this work is finished, so the engraving here can be as deep as the maker wants. (Note, too, that the technique of inserting a thicker silver plaque in the center of OSP salvers and platters for an engraved crest was perfected around 1810-1815; try letting your breath fog up the crest and look for the distinct line of the plaque surrounding it.)

Fifth, train your eye (and nose!) Since OSP has a layer of alloyed silver, it will have the warmth and glow of sterling. The thin coating on electroplate, however, is pure silver: harsher and whiter. (This is one of the most difficlut talents to master but, I find, far and away the most reliable.) Likewise, OSP often has that familiar "silver" smell; EP almost never does.

Like I say, just a few tips; hope they help.

P.S.: My friends here would be think it odd it I didn't inject a bit of my passion: remember that some very fine fused silver plate was made in France as well. These Restauration treasures are often ignored and can be quite magnificent.

posted 09-27-2006 10:55 PM            

'How can you tell if an electroplated item is really an OLDER OSP item has been electroplated?'

You generally can not tell with any degree of certainty. My first clue is the style. My second is that if it says Sheffield anywhere on it, it isn't Sheffield.

Later plating is sometimes very hard to figure out, especially if it is well done. It is possible to give electroplate a blue cast which very much mimics the look of Sheffield.

The only other thing I would have to say is to look for a 'grain' which is probably the wrong word. Silver that has been worked by hand frequently shows a 'grain'. Electroplate is a fairly even deposit which is uniform. This is more likely felt than seen. Run fingers lightly over the piece to see if you can detect any direction.

On the end of fusion plate; my understanding is that certain types of items were made from fusion plate well beyond the 1850's. Particularly larger trays and domes as well as hand mirrors and some dresser items. The clue here is to look for a need for strength which neither sterling nor electroplate on brittania metal would give. As well as some types of jewelry, particularly very fancy hair ornaments, made into the 20th century from a copper and silver sandwich. It looks that fusion plate died out in mainline silver, with some few exceptions, but lingered in allied trades for a while.

Did read that well into the 1990's Rolls Royce used sheffield plate for cooling radiators on jet engines. Silver is a great metal for controling temperature.

posted 09-28-2006 12:05 AM            

Hughes also has several chapters that explain the various techniques for decorating, making edges and mounts, making hinges, and other manufacturing processes. Sheffield plate is sterling silver (of various thicknesses) fused over copper and it acquires a bluish tint through the years. The copper that occasionally shows through I think just adds to its charm.

posted 09-28-2006 01:14 PM            

In the past I've gone to museums looking at silver but of course you can't touch or examine it up close (looking for seams, construction, etc).

Are there any close up pictures on any known websites of OSP items that show magnified details of construction? I have looked at some pieces on the internet but they don't generally show construction details just the object from a distance or a hallmark if available. Do any readers of this site have such close up pictures of their own treasures showing handle application, feet application, rims etc?

I also heard that they tried making OSP flatware too but that didn't work well. Any truth to that? Thank you ALL again. Hilda

posted 09-28-2006 03:04 PM            

quote:

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I also heard that they tried making OSP flatware too but that didn't work well. Any truth to that?

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Yes; the copper interior couldn't stand up to the constant wear that flatware endures, and the sharp, narrow edges of spoons & forks left too much of the base metal core exposed. There was a technique known as "close plating", where a sheet of silver foil was adhered to steel by means of a flux amalgam, that was used on dessert sets, buttonhooks and other items which required strength. Close plating was the only method of plating steel even after the introduction of electroplating, which tended to rust the steel. As a result, close plating survived well into the 19th century. Close plate items can usually be identified by their steel base which is often exposed, since the technique did not create items which could last too terribly long; certainly not centuries. The "foil" nature of the silver that remains is usually readily identifiable, as is the typical "blistering" that can occur when when the steel core has rusted or corroded in spots.

posted 09-28-2006 04:21 PM            

Is it possible the knife blade is close plate and the applied handle could be sterling, should I look at those handles more closely, they're worn smooth near the area where one usually finds the hallmarks? Or is it more likely the whole thing would be routinely silverplate?

So, do you know when they began or created this "closed plate" method? It sounds like close plating was similar in design to OSP except that the thin sheet of sterling in close plate was "glued/bonded" to steel and the OSP was hammered/pressed or forged onto the base metal?

did they do close plate in the 18th century?

Also do you know what kind of cement they used to bond the fork or knife blade base down into the handle? Is something available today to "reglue" these items that have dried out and fallen out of their handles? I am here in Florida and I just went though a wash tub, yes a wash tub, of old silver plate at an antique mall.

I found 4 pieces of coin and two knives and two matching wierd pronged forks that scream old and German. I just located on the internet info that says one impressed mark (pomegranet over a R) means Augsburg. R is the date letter and based on the style of the R could be 1783 or 1806 based upon the Pomegranet over a T that I found associated with another object which supposedly is 1811. on the otherside of the knife/fork handle is an impressed FED or EED. On the blade of the knife is H. Mueller below which is Wurtzburg with 2 dots over the u. The fork neck and tongs and knife blades look like they are solid silver but could they be "closed plate" with no bubbling?

posted 09-28-2006 11:02 PM            

An item was completely fashioned out of steel and then brushed with sal ammoniac (acting as a flux) and then dipped in molten tin. Silver foil was then applied and the whole item burnished with a hot soldering iron. This melted the tin and, with the help of the flux, fused the silver to the steel.

I don’t know if the process extended into Germany, but it was, as I say, the only way to silver-plate steel. Your Augsburg set with the year letter “R” below a pinecone (not a pomegranate - a pinecone has been the symbol for Augsburg since before the 13th century) might be 1806, but is more likely from 1831 – the third cycle of Augsburg date letters. The maker “FED” (there was no “EED”) was Friedrich Ernst Dassdorf, master 1803, d. 1841. He could have made something in 1806, but the “FED” mark is more common later; his early mark was “FD”. H. Müller (or Mueller) is almost certainly the cutler (knife blade maker – a different craft from silversmithy with a different guild); Würzburg is a German city in Bavaria about 150 miles from Augsburg.

Hope this helps!

PS: Blades and tines were generally fixed into hollow handles with pitch (a sort of tar) or, less commonly, plaster (which didn't hold up as well). There are some talented craftsmen today who can repair these, but they are few and far between; try checking the ads in Silver magazine (shameless plug).

posted 09-29-2006 11:28 PM            

quote:

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How can you tell if an electroplated item is really an OLDER OSP item has been electroplated?
Does anyone have some academic pictures of OSP items with detail shots of how the edges are treated to hide the seams, how ornamentation is treated

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One way to tell OSP is that the construction techniques were the same as for silver - you can see hammer marks and center punch marks (if the bottom is exposed), neither of which would you see on electroplate.

Here are two OSP pots, a Rococo coffee pot of the 1770's on the left, and a Neoclassical covered jug of somewhat later vintage.

In the pictures below, the coffee pot is early and shows the way seams are hidden - the spout was cast in two halves, and the seamed joints are covered by beaded strips. The jug shows the way the coppeer edge on the lip is hidden by applied beading, and the reserve shows the thickness of the silver layer by showing no copper in the bright cut engraving. There is also some "bleeding" of copper where silver on the high points of the embossed swags is wearing away.

The coffee pot also has a seam, visible on the inside, that is detectable on the outside only by a faint line of air bubbles barely visible in the solder. There are also hammer marks visible inside. The making of jug is more sophisticated, and is better finished, showing little of the hammering and seaming.

posted 10-01-2006 01:17 PM            

also, since the construction of these pots consisted of thin fused sheets of silver/copper/silver which was cut stamped and moulded together, are these items rather light in weight and "flexible" as opposed to rigid in the body and thus subject to easily being dented?

posted 10-01-2006 06:29 PM            

The ferrules used to attach the handles are not hallmarked, so they were probably not solid silver, although small silver objects could escape the hallmarking. They are shaped and not cast.

The tip of the spout does not show the copper edge - it probably has a layer of silver along the edge, although it is not visible as such. The "sandwich" is usually visible, as it is on both of these pieces, along the bottom of the foot portion where it contacts the table surface and wears as a result.

posted 10-26-2006 02:34 AM            

I'm back home and dug out a teapot that has seams, no hallmarks and shines up nicely but it is still a puzzle. In my quest to learn how to ID OSP, I am still stumped. I can't figure this out.

Is it OSP, is it COIN, or is it Silverplate unmarked?

No Hallmarks that I can find.

This tea pot was made in sections and welded together just like I would expect in Old Sheffield Plate based upon what I have read. The pot is very shinny on the outside and looks like silver. It has a lovely deeply chased decoration that is pushed out from the inside. The style of the pot looks Victorian but that period early on overlapped OSP and COIN. Oddly the inside of the lid looks like tin however while cleaning it, the bottle brush scraped the bottom and it was shinny like silver inside too (not tin dull like the inside top of the lid). It is a light weight pot and the metal dents easily (could it be unmarked coin?) The handles and knob appear to be cast and do not shine up like silver (would they have been plated even if this was OSP or COIN?).

So, without hallmarks, how is one suppose to tell what something is?

What is the estimated date of this piece?

Why was it made this way which would require a lot more work and be more likely to leak?

Why is it so thin and flimsy are they skimping on metal for some reason?

Seams have been smoothed over on he body of the pot in the rear where handle is applied but seems can be seen on spout.

Bottom of pot made in a section and soldered together but note those 4 cast feet.

Beautiful stamped or chased work, reverse pattern seen from inside

The pot looks like silver, very pretty, but light weight.

Thank you all in advanced. Hilda

posted 10-26-2006 01:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by swarter:
One way to tell OSP is that the construction techniques were the same as for silver - you can see hammer marks and center punch marks (if the bottom is exposed), neither of which would you see on electroplate.

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HI, I posted a pot with seams etc below, I would appreciate your comments. Thank you Hilda

posted 10-26-2006 02:17 PM            

Inside pot bottom. While using a bottle brush, dirt removed revealed shinny metal, not "tin" looking dull metal.

Inside of lid looks dull like tin. Lip of lid is folded back to center. Bird held on by copper screw shaft and copper bolt. Assume bird knob is original and not a later addition.

Cast Handle has hole in it. Doesn't shine up like silver or silverplate.

posted 10-31-2006 11:24 PM            

You mention that the body is very light weight. I would suspect that it began life as a Swedish pot made in 'tinn metal' which translates as pewter but is not at all like our pewter. It is a very thin but durable metal comparable to the tin in tin cans. And it does take a high polish, virtually indistinguishable from silver. It is also easily worked, hence used for repousee training. I have encountered a few pieces clearly marked Eskiltuna, and quite a few with no markings. They had had later repousee work.

So, this looks to me like something that was reworked a long time ago. What we need to remember is: there have always been smiths. And they needed things to work on and practice with. They frequently took all sorts of odds and ends scrounged from their environs. And put them together into lovely items that drive us crazy.

Do the various measurements work out evenly into inches or metric? This is a very good test of origin.

posted 11-01-2006 12:44 PM            

You indicated the finial looked early 1830's, it does not shine up, what would it be made of do you think?

Is this "tinn" metal interior really "safe" to use for tea (does that formula contain lead or other bad elements)? How do I "sanitize" it or is it just a visual objet d'art?

posted 11-02-2006 12:53 AM            

The trick in looking at something is both having a fairly good idea of what it looked like when new, and seeing what has been done to it over the years. There is the idea in the air that the techniques used in the past are lost to us. Which I feel is untrue. These techniques are not lost, they are just incredibly difficult to master. Which really does not stop dedicated people. And the most talented get good at it.

For materials, there are always odds and ends floating around. Looking at your pot, the feet look just slightly out of scale. More like feet from a butter dish than a tea pot. Then trying to figure out the pot part, what dawned on me is that usually the pot with these feet has a really accentuated curve. Yours is fairly flat. Which made me suspect that it had a ring type support. These tend to be in short supply due to the old custom of letting them warm on the stove. Which tended to melt the rim. Resulting in a junked pot.

So, I can see where someone could come up with the body and the feet. Handles frequently have problems: they come off, they are klutzy, they break into two. So, there are always a lot of them around. The finial still has me puzzled a bit. Hopefully, someone can shed light on it.