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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 British / Irish Sterling
 missing hallmark
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| Author | Topic: missing hallmark |
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fromireland1731 Posts: 3 |
posted 07-04-2006 06:15 PM
  
I notice there's several items on ebay that only have 3 hallmarks: duty mark, date mark, standard mark. Many seem to be missing the mark of origin for London (leopard's head). Does this indicate a forgery or was the leopard's head ever missing? IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 07-04-2006 11:11 PM
Welcome to the forum. The quick answer to your question is "no." In fact silver missing the town mark is generally presumed to have been made in London. Check out this recent forum thread for some background: Georgian spoon Also, can you tell us a bit about yourself and your interest in silver (someting we ask of new members). Tom IP: Logged |
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fromireland1731 Posts: 3 |
posted 07-05-2006 12:17 PM
Thank you. So I assume that just because it's missing the town mark doesn't mean it's a fake? I'm just a dabbler in collecting (if you call it that!) Georgian silver. I'm an 18th c. reenactor so I like the silver from the 18th c. but I'm very green and just don't want to spend what extra money I have on fakes. On another website it says that silver MUST have the 4 marks or else it may not be English and may not be sterling. Is that true? Ifeel very inept at spotting fakes. IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 07-05-2006 01:29 PM
Online sources and many published ones provide little more than broad guidelines and basic information. The absence of a town mark might under some circumstances be cause for suspicion, but it does not by itself indicate a forgery, especially as I said in the case of London. You should look closely at the other marks (lion passant, date and maker's marks) to see that their design and the shape of punch in which the mark is set conform to those of the time period of the piece. Even then, exceptions abound, as you can see from the discussion of my Georgian spoon. Spotting fakes is not always easy, and as an amateur myself, I don't have the expertise to do so with any confidence. A good rule of thumb is not to spend any more on a piece than you would mind losing, especially if you buy it online. I also believe the better busines bureau slogan, "If a deal looks to good to be true, it probably is." A little low cost basic research would go along way and might even help you with your career as a reenactor. Wyler's Book of Old Silver is inexpensive and provides a good introduction to silver, and its weaknesses should not trouble a beginner. Other sources can be found by looking at the forum library web page. A good public library should have at least a couple of the more general ones. You might also puruse the British forum connected with this site. It contains a wealth of information and provides insight into the complexities of silver collecting. Good luck, IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1652 |
posted 07-05-2006 03:07 PM
Tom's advice is excellent. I would like to add two more thoughts: 1) one of the reasons why you may not always find a complete set of hallmarks is if the object is small and there is no room to put a full set of marks; and 2) a full set of hallmarks is no guarantee of authenticity since any serious forger will be able to acquire high quality hallmarking tools to reproduce old markings on either modern reproductions or more deviously, to old but run of the mill silver in order to boost the value by attributing either greater age or a famous maker. Educate yourself not only with good reference books (see other parts of this forum for recommendations on these) and more importantly start looking at old silver of the type in which you have an interest. Go to museums, go to reputable shops and dealers and get the feel for what looks right and what does not. Start small, work your way up and have a good sense of perspective for the occassional time you get foxed into buying something that is not right. Finally, have fun! [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 07-05-2006).] IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 07-05-2006 05:02 PM
As a very rough guide to Georgian English silver marks. Except spoons (I know little on this very specialist field) You should nearly always see a Lion Passant Guardant on a piece of silver. This lion had the head facing you so you can see both eyes. Went to side profile in London in 1822. After 1784 your will find a George Head duty mark on virtually all pieces. You should also find a makers mark on all pieces. The date letter will be present on large items but not usually buckles until c1790. Tongs around the same date. The town mark for London rarely appears on small items until after around 1800. Sheffield and Birmingham tend to have a full set of either three (pre 1784) or four marks fight from the start in 1773. Exceptions exist.
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 07-05-2006 07:07 PM
All this of course assumes that they are in fact hallmarks and not pseudohallmarks, which are neither fakes nor forgeries. While the question is legitimate, we require photographs before attempting definitive answers - a caveat here is that we cannot discuss specific ongoing auction items or values, or use their photographs without permission. If you have no example of your own, you can search completed auctions for examples and you can ask the seller(s) for permission to use their photograph(s). [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 07-05-2006).] IP: Logged |
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fromireland1731 Posts: 3 |
posted 07-06-2006 06:30 PM
< While the question is legitimate, we require photographs before attempting definitive answers - a caveat here is that we cannot discuss specific ongoing auction items or values, or use their photographs without permission.> I'll keep that in mind if I ever have a question about a specific item. My question was about items in general that have only 3 hallmarks. I would never impose the list members' time or expertise to advise me on specific items on ebay. Thank you all for your generous advice. I'll print it out and save it in my book of hallmarks. IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 07-06-2006 07:40 PM
I understood your question to be general, which is why I addressed it. I think the moderator's comment was by way of general guidance (just doing his job) and not implying that you had done anything wrong. We have had people try to use the forum to help them buy or sell things for profit, so we have become a bit more vigilant on this matter. Do continue to particpate in the forum. Tom IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 07-07-2006 02:25 AM
The Finial and click on this. You will find actively archived back issues. Someplace in one of those back issues is an article about fakes but more importantly info about the vagaries of English hallmarks. Someplace in the SMP archives there is a reference to The Finial. Good luck with your collecting. IP: Logged |
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