BB Maker's Mark-George III-London Spoon

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BB Maker's Mark-George III-London Spoon

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Author	Topic: BB Maker's Mark-George III-London Spoon
Primroy Posts: 42 Registered: Jan 2007	posted 12-23-2007 11:37 PM [26-1552] Season's Greetings. I was wondering if anyone knows this maker's mark and can give me an approximate date? The BB looks different than the ones I have found. The duty and date mark are missing from this 5.75" King's pattern teaspoon. IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 12-24-2007 06:54 AM Almost certainly Benjamin Bickerton, free 1756 after apprenticeship to his brother Henry . His first recorded mark, similar to this ,( as were most of his) is 1762 with subsequent marks up to 1791 (the last in partnership with his son Thomas) . Most marks as small worker and listed as such in the Parliamentary Report 1773. Both he and family were buckle makers of some note. Benjamins marks 1779, 1789 and 1791 were as buckle maker at a time when the buckle trade was declining fast. Died in 1808.There are posts on the Bickerton family in the English/Irish section of this site . Modesty prohibits me from naming the contributor. The absence of George Head indicates a pre 1785 date, which seems a little early for this style, but I know very little on spoons so should not really comment. IP: Logged
Primroy Posts: 42 Registered: Jan 2007	posted 12-24-2007 07:35 PM I am curious to know when the King's pattern was first produced and by whom. IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4132 Registered: Apr 99	posted 12-24-2007 07:55 PM Can you post a clear image of the shoulder. And the back, as a whole? IP: Logged
Primroy Posts: 42 Registered: Jan 2007	posted 12-24-2007 08:26 PM Hi Wev, quote: ... this old antique spoon which is done in King's pattern and hallmarked with a crowned leopards head for London and the lion passant for sterling but is missing the date letter and duty mark which I've read happens sometimes. It is has the maker's mark which is BB but I cannot figure out who this is.The spoon is in great condition showing very little wear. I have just purchased and have yet to receive the spoon. I'll be glad to post more then. IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 12-25-2007 02:35 AM Clive said: "The absence of George Head indicates a pre 1785 date." At a WEB site, they say that 'Kings' pieces were first made in England around 1770, but didn't become popular until the 1810s. They don't cite anything to support the 1770 date, but probably would be willing to do so if Primroy were to email them. The passage is: quote: ..... The kings pattern is first found in France during the mid eighteenth century. Occasional pieces were made in England c. 1770, but it is not until the 1810's that this pattern becomes popular in Britain. (A service is recorded in use at Windsor Palace in 1808.) Here in America, this pattern does not become popular until about 1820, when trade resumes after the war of 1812. ... Or maybe someone here knows? I'm interested in 'Kings' history myself. IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4132 Registered: Apr 99	posted 12-25-2007 11:02 AM American, not English: Barzillia Benjamin IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 12-25-2007 12:33 PM Although both the fiddle handle and King's pattern were developed from Eighteenth Century French designs, the vast majority of English examples date from the Nineteenth Century, and have square shoulders, not the "sugar loaf" style on this spoon. The bowl shape is also later. Because the lion head punch didn't look quite right to me, I first thought this might be Canadian or Chinese Export, but could not substantiate either. Such pseudohallmarks as are on this spoon are not common in American silver, but the BB punch does look like the one illustrated for Barzillai Benjamin of Conn. in Flynt & Fales. This lion passant punch is shown in McGrew for Benjamin (with the same maker's mark), and for an unidentified O&C, which also bears the same Lion's head punch (which was also used by Nathan Olmstead of Conn.) So wev is correct (as usual), the spoon is American, the mark is that of Barzillai Benjamin, and, whoever made the spoon, supplied it to other Connecticut retailers as well. IP: Logged
Primroy Posts: 42 Registered: Jan 2007	posted 12-25-2007 12:49 PM Does anyone else believe this spoon is American? What is your reasoning please Wev? quote: Originally posted by wev: American, not English: Barzillia Benjamin IP: Logged
Primroy Posts: 42 Registered: Jan 2007	posted 12-25-2007 12:53 PM Thanks for the useful information Swarter and everyone that added to the conversation about this spoon. IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 12-25-2007 01:21 PM I was a little surprised to see no Duty mark on this spoon as I thought Kings pattern was a little later than the December 1784 cut off point. However as I remarked I'm no expert on spoons. But an American silversmith adding English hallmarks? Seems very unlikely, as is it for the spoon to have been reworked later to follow fashion. Occams Razor Rules ! I would still stand by either English , or perhaps psuedo marks - although most psuedo marks I have seen from after 1800 have the duty mark on them. IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 12-25-2007 02:20 PM quote: an American silversmith adding English hallmarks ? Seems very unlikely Pseudohallmarks imitating British hallmarks were widely used in former English colonies and other outposts of the old Empire, as well as on "Chinese import" products. While most are readily recognizable, as indicated above such close copies are unusual, but well enough documented. IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4132 Registered: Apr 99	posted 12-25-2007 03:04 PM quote: What is your reasoning please Wev? Along the same lines as Swarter's: sugarloaf shoulder, unmolded drop, bowl shape, mark placement, recurrent pseudo-hallmarks, Benjamin's known retailing activities and connection with New York manufacturers. IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 12-25-2007 04:42 PM Going from the bio information at the American Silversmiths genealogy site Barzillia Benjamin could have been making and marking from about 1795 onward, and is known to have been doing so from 1814-1844. Swarter, wev, do I understand you correctly as saying that the bowl shape indicates the later end of this period, or...? How early was the 'Kings' pattern made in the colonies/U.S.? I saw the Fales 'cautious collectors' book in the library when I first went looking for silver literature, but passed it up because I didn't think it would be relevant to 1880s patterns. Now that I know a little more, I can see it will be rewarding. IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 12-25-2007 07:09 PM quote: Swarter, wev, do I understand you correctly as saying that the bowl shape indicates the later end of this period, or...? How early was the 'Kings' pattern made in the colonies/U.S.? see the photos in this thread ( Tip Wear Compensation?). The sequence of 8 19th C spoons is arranged approximately chronologically from bottom to top. Only the first ones overlap from the end of the 18th. Since American fiddle handled spoons are all basically 19th C and the Kings pattern is a fiddle-handled style it could not be 18th C. Probably the first Kings pattern flatware sold here was imported from England (some unmarked for stamping here), as the equipment needed for making two sided pieces was probably not available here. I'm guessing on the dates, but the first domestic patterns were one sided (top only) as they were made by hammering (and later stamping or pressing)the face of the handle and stem into a swage or mold, probably in the 1820's. The first domestic two sided patterns may not have been made locally until the '30s or 40's. Others more familiar with patterned silver may have more accurate information as to the dates and technology involved. IP: Logged

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