posted 05-24-2000 10:35 AM            

This is a continuation of two threads in the General Silver Forum

Fakes posted 07-01-99 11:08 PM

Fakes continued - post #2 posted 07-22-1999 01:38 PM

posted 12-06-2000 11:38 PM            

1. A Gorham Cluny pattern teaspoon (I think...the length of the remake was 5.25") that has been "specially re-manufactured for scooping relishes and condiments," to quote the seller. The asking price was 55.00--there were no takers. Another picture showed an old monogram...so this was an old piece that has been not only highly buffed but cut down and reformed as well.

   

2. This silly thing, made by cutting the middle two tines from a fork and giving it a tiny point there, has even been given its own name...the seller calls it an "English Server." I don't even know what that means. This example is in Chantilly; the same seller also offered "English Servers" in Cinq Fleurs, Etruscan, and many more. They have all been "freshly polished." These things have been getting bids for as much as 45.00.

   

posted 10-15-2006 11:43 AM            

Rgds,

posted 10-17-2006 05:49 PM            

Quite

I have the same feelings and do sometimes contact sellers. What is so surprising is that I find the vast majority of sellers actually appreciate the input given to them, rather than resent interference. I suspect as their reputation depends on truthfulness this is why they are usually very fast to amend their entries. There are deliberate fakes on ebay- but in my opinion most sellers are scrupulously honest - if often misinformed.

posted 10-20-2006 02:33 PM            

The one time I did, I brought it to the seller's attention. He withdrew them Took my views on board and went to an antiques' dealer friend who concurred with my view. He then sent them to the assay office in London. The items were six silver plates, Irish c 1878 (from memory). The marks did not tally with Jackson's. However, on further investigation I found that Jackson's also has an appendix of photos of Irish marks - guess what, they were there even though the drawings in the main body of the book were totally different. It was no surprise that he later told me that the assay office confirmed they were as they appeared.

So, there are some very honourable ebay sellers. And again, I ask, when was the last time anyone encountered a genuing English/Irish silver fake?

Rgds to all,

posted 12-24-2006 08:19 PM            

Anyway, these made-up items will continue to trickle into the secondary antiques market, because people do buy them. Most people are happy to have an item they want in their pattern, even if it isn't "real". The tricky part is for the future dealer to tell the made-up from the genuine antique. Also, to determine what the made-up item is actually worth, because there clearly is a market for them.

Also, there are some substantive rumors floating of fakery at the very top end of the market, with gold plated insects and other critters being applied to pieces that never had them originally. Be careful out there!

posted 01-13-2007 03:03 AM            

Let me start out by saying.. "buyer beware". If you are buying silver, find a dealer that you trust.

Starting 8 or 9 years ago, a lot of "made up" sterling silver flatware pieces have come on the market, either on line or at antique shows or shops.

The first thing to watch out for is the converted tea spoon or coffee spoon. These are the cheapest pieces to start with. If you are in doubt about a piece you are looking at, place the suspected piece on top of the unconverted spoon or fork and see if the expensive converted piece could have been made from the cheaper original.

Ice cream spoons have been made out of teaspoons forever.

Quantity of an item can be a sign that there has been a conversion.
I have seen thousands of Mustard ladles being made from teaspoons and coffee spoons, salt spoons from demitasse spoons and 'ideal olive spoons' from ice tea spoons. Flat butter knives get converted into butter picks,

Generally, if one piece can be made from another, it is being done.. and done cheaply.
The usual cost is $5.00 per piece to do the simple stuff like mustard ladle conversions.
And... I have seen a coffee spoon in the Whiting 'Lily' pattern converted into a mustard ladle, and sell for 5 times what the spoon would, so there is incentive for dealers to misrepresent (or not mention the origin of) their merchandise.

You can usually tell who is selling conversions, because they have a lot of them for sale. For example, if I have 3 mustard ladles at one time, that is a lot. But if I see someone on line or at a shop or a show who is selling 20 or more at once, they are usually conversions. Buy them with the knowledge that they are conversions.

posted 12-13-2008 04:54 PM            

Tablespoons whose bowls are stamped to fake a "repousse" fruit pattern, turning the item into a supposed berry spoon. Have seen identical bowls on the big online auction site on Whiting 'Old King' and Polhamus & Strong 'Bead' spoons, and another that no longer has the image available. In two cases the bowl was given a gold wash, in another case the gold wash has been applied and then rubbed off the high spots as if worn.

I'll post pictures soon.

posted 12-13-2008 08:37 PM            

OTOH I found china etc. marks mis-ID'ed by sellers & they were most appreciative for my comments & changed their listings when possible, or added it.

A funny story, when a Hockey player's car showed up on that auction site for sale, (as it happened, I know the player, & the car), & that weren't it! P.S. The player also agreed it never belonged to him.

And the beat goes on!

Jersey

posted 01-29-2009 08:59 AM            

I would not be surprised if ellabee's spoon came from the factory with that bowl. Or at least was chased by a local jeweler while it was still new. The grape leaves along the edge look very American 1860s to me. That is certainly the bowl's original shape and scalloped edge.

posted 02-06-2009 11:44 AM            

quote:

---

we surmised someone had inserted a circular patch with a spurious mark and silver soldered it into place.

---

It could have been a genuine mark taken from a damaged piece or one of lesser value - unfortunately not an uncommon practice in years past.

posted 05-07-2009 01:04 AM            

The impetus for modifying silver came in the early 80's. Most dealers were stuck with silver they had paid too much for during the bubble. They had to move things out without too great a loss. So, we began to see all the wonderful new silver come out. The 'English fork' above was usually offered as the 'baked potato server'. Good seller since the standard product did not offer anything to serve baked potatos with.

These sold best person to person, as the regular cook/entertainment people tend to buy that way. A lot of old pieces got a new lease on life this way. And the silver using public was expanded.

posted 05-09-2009 10:07 AM            

This is prompted by the inquiry earlier in this thread about "genuine" fake English marks. A year or two ago, when I was still an internet novice (I have been slow to adapt to new technology) I thought I had found a relative bargain in an internet auction. When the spoon arrived it proved to be a fairly obvious fake. The seller agreed to refund my money but I was reluctant to let the spoon back on the market so instead negotiated a greatly reduced price (allegedly what it had cost the seller) and kept the spoon. Naïve, perhaps, but I find fakes have an interest of their own.

The most common fake apostle spoons are re-shaped 18th century spoons that have had a finial added to them. The giveaways are that the proportions of the resultant spoon are usually wrong and that there is a full set of marks for too late a date climbing up the back of the stem. This spoon is a bit more sophisticated in its attempt to deceive. At first glance it could be a genuine early 17th century St Peter though with marks that are now illegible. I believe it may in fact have been cast from a genuine original. The stem marks, however, are not from the original spoon. They are possibly the closed up marks from a bottom marked London 18th century spoon and have been very skilfully let into the stem. It took me a long time to spot the solder line. What's more, the four 18th century marks have been reduced to three to allow for the fact that leopard's head mark, or the trace of a mark purporting to be that, is in the bowl.

It is not a new fake and may have been lurking in a collection unrecognized for a time. A genuine spoon of the period with illegible marks because of wear over time would still be pretty valuable so I imagine the original faker made his or her profit.