posted 02-18-2003 10:41 PM            

It is, if you believe the sellers' breathless description, a "100% original" "16th or 17th century chalice" "brought back here to Maine from Brazil in the 19th century." Complete with a mysterious coat of arms engraved on the front, they tell us.

Well .... that mysterious coat of arms is, of course, nothing less than the logo of the Plaza Hotel on Central Park South! Our fabled chalice is an old plated hotel-silver sugar bowl. Now, I wonder how it ended up in Brazil ....

posted 02-18-2003 11:31 PM            

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Ebay 2509670326 Seller: brulin
16th, 17th, Century Coin Silver Chalice

We clean houses out here in Western Maine. We found this Chalice yesterday here in Western Maine. It weighs about 3/4 of a pound, and measures 4 3/4" high by 5 1/8" wide. The people we got it from said it was brought back here to Maine from Brazil in the 19th century, we have no reason not to believe them. It shows great honest old wear and age, we see no repairs or damage whatsoever, it's 100% original. The coat of arms or monogram was struck and not engraved, the filigree around the outside was probably hand struck separately, at the same time. The impression of the strike shows on the inside of the bowl. There are no hallmarks, which makes us think it was made here in the Americas and not in Europe, although plenty of coin silver was shipped to Europe and worked into many different forms in the 16th and 17th century. The base and top were made separately and than attached. The inside bottom where it goes up to the curved part of the base and shows very fine spun marks. The rounded part of the base, that attaches to the top piece,is definitely hand hammered, the hammering shows on both sides. What its origin is we can only guess, let us know what you think and we'll pass it on. People out there, pay attention, this is not an 18th or 19th century piece of silver. We have no problem with our 16th or 17th century attribution, everything about it points to it, that's not saying it couldn't be earlier. We know that's stretching it, you make up your own mind. Oh! by the way, it goes with out saying, this is solid coin silver, not plated.

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Can you say Brazil nut?

posted 02-19-2003 07:36 AM            

"You may very well be right, but I don't think so, stay tuned, we'll both
know in seven days, If you find any more, I'm a buyer."

posted 02-19-2003 08:38 AM            

Makes me think of a quote I heard years ago something along the lines of "The theories we believe are facts, and the facts we don't believe are theories". The man holds strong to his beliefs!

I recently sold a nice little demitasse spoon from the Mayflower Hotel, guess I should have described it as having come over on the ship in 1620. Oh well, too late now!

posted 02-19-2003 09:21 AM            

But with the "chalice" the description and attributions are significant and imply a level of expertise. An unknowledgeable bidder could be relying upon the seller's expertise. I know, I know .... say caveat emptor and blame the bidder.

Just looking at the "chalice" photos it looks as if it is white metal and all the silverplate is gone. How did the seller determine it was "Oh! by the way, it goes with out saying, this is solid coin silver, not plated." If they don't know for sure and are wishfully guessing can that be called honest?

posted 02-19-2003 01:06 PM            

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On Feb-19-03 at 07:29:04 PST, seller added the following information:

This is what someone e-mailed us about this piece: (Uh, I hate to break the news to you, but your "chalice" is actually a silverplate sugar bowl, circa late 20th century, from the Plaza Hotel in New York. That "coat of arms" is the Plaza's logo, as you'll see if you visit the hotel's homepage, plazahotel.com. Now, I wonder how it ended up in 19th-century Maine ) Our only comment is, we know hotel items show much use, but how, in such a short time, could a piece like this have not hundreds, but thousands of scattered, minute nicks, scratches, dents, and what looks like hundreds of years of wear from being hand handled. The monogram is worn smooth from it, if it was a sugar bowl it wouldn't have been handled more than a few times a day. As far as the monogram goes, whoever designed it for the Plaza Hotel may have gotten the design from a book of early Coat of Arms or monograms, companies still do it today. One last thing, this monogram was struck by hand and not all at once. The filigree or outside design was hand hammered one at a time. We did look up the New York Plaza site on the internet and did find their monogram, at best it's a poor modernized, you might say "the Art Deco look", facsimile or copy of the one that's on this piece, it's definitely not the same. Stay tuned, if anything, it's interesting. We'll keep you up to date.

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On Feb-19-03 at 09:32:45 PST, seller added the following information:

This is the answer we gave the person who said this was a sugar bowl from the Plaza hotel from the late 20th century: (We're just going around and around with this, and we're not out to hurt anyone, as you can see by our feedback, so we might as well wait and see. We guarantee everything and give refunds with no questions asked. I don't understand how if the wear is from a dishwasher how it didn't do the same to the underpart which shows little wear. Even if it was done by hand, being washed with other items would make the wear consistent on all parts. Also you would never have an uncovered sugar bowl in a hotel or restaurant. This never, at anytime, had a cover.)

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posted 02-19-2003 02:14 PM            

Since the seller seems sincere, you might suggest that they join us here in this discussion. If you do, please help them to understand that we don't want to become the research arm of their online business.

posted 02-19-2003 06:10 PM            

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On Feb-19-03 at 13:58:00 PST, seller added the following information:

To all of you people out there. we've solved the mystery of the Park Plaza Hotel theory. We brought this chalice to Pa's Trading Company Inc. 1190 Main Street Oxford, Maine, probably the largest gold and silver dealer here in Western Maine and had them test this for silver. I personally watched him acid test the chalice in three places, all three turned up gray, also watched him test by rubbing on a touch stone, also from three places, all turned up gray. I have a signed affidavit, on his letter head, which will go with the chalice and reads: I have tested a bowl for Bruce Richards with acid and a touch stone and in my opinion believe it is silver. Paul Cote 1190 Main Street Oxford, Maine 04268. By the way he does have a phone and is willing to verify it to anyone who calls him. We knew it was silver when we listed it, this just proves it. We stick to our original description.

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On Feb-19-03 at 14:19:39 PST, seller added the following information:

By the way, if anyone out there cares, I am a retired local Massachusetts Law Enforcement Officer. I do know what theft by deception is, especially using the US mails, just thought I'd mention it.

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posted 02-19-2003 08:56 PM            

His pictures are quite clear and it appears to me that the photos of the inside of the bowl show many small spots where the plating is off and showing white metal. I have owned old pieces with very heavy plating where the engraving and even makers marks have been worn into virtual obscurity from polishing and use, yet they are still not down to base metal. I know from experience that the plating on most hotel and railroad pieces is quite heavy (to stand up to commercial cleaning), would the acid test show this as silver, so long as the acid didn't remain on long enough to eat through? As my jeweler friend Glenn says "Lord, protect me from all the novices with a touchstone and bottles of acid" (he was including me!). That said, the seller states that the acid "turned up gray" when tested, isn't the color for silver supposed to be red or brown (depending on the fineness)?

posted 02-20-2003 12:14 AM            

Reminds me of the man who claimed he was dead and when his friend asked if dead men bled the man exclaimed "Of course not!" His friend pricked the man's finger and it began to bleed. His friend then asked what do you make of this?.... The man's response was "What do you know? I guess dead men DO bleed."

We will not be able to prove anything to those who do not wish to be told.

This is a facinating tale we are wittnessing.

posted 02-20-2003 08:43 AM            

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On Feb-19-03 at 15:18:51 PST, seller added the following information:

We forgot to mention that we had this tested today, after several inquiries, and the affidavit is dated 2/19/03.

On Feb-19-03 at 16:54:01 PST, seller added the following information:

We have had so many pros and cons and controversy over this item that we feel you should treat this as a circa 1975 piece of hotel junk, that's what the majority of E-mails are telling us. In over 6000 items we've sold on E-bay, we've never stopped an auction for any reason whatsoever
and really don't want to now. As we've said before if you don't like the item for any reason, send it back for a complete refund, no questions asked. We won't hold anybody to any bids they may have made. Hopefully this will put closure on this mess we got ourselves in. Believe us our intentions were honorable. Thank you out there for the pros and the cons. I guess this is what makes life interesting, have a good evening. Bruce

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posted 02-20-2003 11:47 AM            

There are several different types of silver acid. I use an old mixture that has several advantages. It stays unchanged on high grade silver and gets progressively whiter on lesser quality silver. Plated items if scratched or nicked turn black immediately. It is still difficult to test very thick French plate. I believe it is very hard to come by this acid, so don't ask.

posted 02-20-2003 02:13 PM            

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On Feb-20-03 at 10:55:40 PST, seller added the following information:

Last night some one recommended we file a spot on the bottom inside rim to see if it was plated. we did, I took a thin metal file and filed a V cut half way through from the inside to the outside of rim. I took a strong magnifying glass and could see no sign of plating whatsoever. Whatever kind of metal this is, it's solid all the way through, it's definitely not plated. Also we took a close look at the inside bottom. We now think it was not spun as we mentioned in our earlier description. We also noticed that the bottom was made in two pieces and soldered together. The top part that's soldered to the bowl is hand hammered, the bottom half piece that meets the table is not hand hammered. You'll have to admit, if anything, whose having more fun than we are. My wife is so mad at me over this, that if she didn't love me, she'd throw me out, in fact she may anyway.

Stay tuned for tomorrows episode. This is getting more like the soaps on T.V., the people die off of old age before it ever ends.

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posted 02-21-2003 09:31 AM            

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On Feb-20-03 at 15:12:17 PST, seller added the following information:

People out there don't you think by now if this was a sugar bowl from the late 20th century and from the Park Plaza Hotel in New York we would have heard from someone saying they have one or maybe a hundred of these or would at least remember seeing one. This was made all by hand, do you really think a hotel would pay some firm to make a hundred of these, being that it's hand soldered, hand hammered, etc. and probably would have been stolen before it ever wore out. Soldering like this is a lost art that went out with the pewters and tinsmiths in the 2nd half of the 19th century. We don't think anybody who lived in the 20th century would even begin to know how to make an item like this by hand. By the way we've had more E-mails about this than any of the 6000 items we sold on E-bay. Stay tuned it gets more interesting day by day. My wife says I never should have brought it home, I should have thrown it out the window on the way.

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posted 02-22-2003 08:58 AM            

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On Feb-21-03 at 17:57:47 PST, seller added the following information:

Still waiting, we haven't heard a word from anyone yet, stating that this piece was ever owned or made for the Park Plaza Hotel, New York. We even have people telling us this is pewter, we don't think so, when tapped by a pencil, it has a fine high pitched bell ring to it. If we do hear, you'll be the first to know. We've also had people tell us that it was old, but not anywhere as old as we claimed, I'll bet they're right.

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posted 02-23-2003 08:28 PM            

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On Feb-23-03 at 15:22:48 PST, seller added the following information:

People out there, give this some thought, can you imagine going to a fine hotel like the Park Plaza in New York City, sitting down to a fine dinner and having this beat up, worn to the bone and what looks like a piece of worn out junk in front of you, surrounded by hand polished, silver plated utensils, a clean table cloth, a linen napkin, a good French wine, etc. They would have thrown this in the trash before it looked anything like this. Imagine, putting sugar in your coffee or anything else edible out of this. It wouldn't be anyplace I'd take my first date. Also the Park Plaza surrounding motif on their logo is acorns, this has handstruck serrated leaves. Beleive me, I do know the difference between handstruck and engraved. Don't forget alot of 18th and early 19th century American silver is not signed. Everything we sell is always returnable including what it cost you to send it back, that goes for anywhere in the world. We've had plenty of time to put this on, we're snowed in and it's still snowing here in Maine.

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But he forgets that trip to Brazil -- a wearing journey even for a retired sugar. . .

posted 02-24-2003 10:10 PM            

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On Feb-24-03 at 18:31:59 PST, seller added the following information:

The consensus of 90% of our E-mails is that this is probably 20th century and at the most 50 to 75 years old, we have no reason to doubt them.

We're sorry for any inconvenience we may have caused. My wife keeps telling me "I told you so", now that I've reached 70 she thinks I'm in my second childhood. My grandson says he's even embarrassed. My dog just kinds of sits there and looks at me funny like. Oh well I'll just get in trouble again over something else, and they'll forget all about it. Hope you people will too.

FINIS Bruce

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posted 02-25-2003 12:56 PM            

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Dominick & Haff ... neglected no opportunity. As with many other such manufacturers they sold large quantities of what is now called "hotel silver", but unlike many other silver companies D & H were extremely proud of this aspect of their production. In 1907, an advertisement boasts that "the order placed with us for the new Plaza Hotel, New York City, will be the finest and most extensive service of the kind ever produced."

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posted 02-25-2003 01:35 PM            

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On Feb-24-03 at 19:27:51 PST, seller added the following information:

My five cats just came in from the barn, I asked them what they thought about the whole thing. They said they didn't much give a damm, one way or the other. They seemed to know all about it, kind of talked it over among themselves, like cats do, the cats they know, we're still friends.

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posted 12-15-2003 03:53 PM            

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A top notch seller. A man of true integrity, not to mention great sense of humor

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posted 12-21-2003 12:01 AM            

What a way to end my day.

Such fun.

posted 04-28-2011 12:54 PM            

Then he add information - as he starts getting the picture. I respect that.

One cannot be expected to give more than he is capable of.
That kind of man is OK to do business with.

Add the sense of humor. Sorry that I was not on eBay at that time. The story is worth more than selling price.

posted 01-12-2017 08:14 AM            

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Originally posted by Scott Martin:
Every few months or whenever I need to smile, I give this read.

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posted 01-12-2017 09:56 AM            

Someone was selling a "1700's rare and early" inkwell by a famous maker, and it was clearly stamped "weighted" on the side. Another was a group of spoons made "circa 1800" where the maker hadn't been born until 1833 and started practicing in 1855.

posted 01-22-2017 02:38 PM            

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Hello Red Shoes Auctions,

We were wondering if you are the same Red Shoes Auctions mentioned in this story and whether there was more you could add to the story.
now I've really seen it all on eBay ....

Thank you,
SM Publications

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Dear SMP,

Yes, that was me. I do remember having that item in my possession for a short time, but I barely remember the details. Based on what I wrote for feedback, my best guess would be that I took it to the person that I was sure would buy it if it was anything good, and got the same reaction that everyone on the silver thread had. (20th century hotel ware) With nothing to lose by taking the chance, I figured, why not? The guy refunded my money, so nothing ventured, nothing gained. Sorry, not a very exciting end to your story.

Sincerely,
Mike "Red Shoes" G.

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