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General Silver Forum What is it?
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Author | Topic: What is it? |
Marc Posts: 414 |
posted 03-25-2003 12:14 PM
[01-1024] Hello there, What is it? I purchased this sterling silver piece in Durgin's "NEW QUEEN" pattern because I do not know what it is?.. I could use any help you can give.. It is 5 1/4" long. Thanks for the help. Respectfully, Marc Cutcher
IP: Logged |
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 03-25-2003 01:36 PM
Wine taster? I know there is a proper name for them, but I only drink from screw-top bottles, so never looked it up. IP: Logged |
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 03-25-2003 04:02 PM
You are thinking of a tastevin or sommelier's cup. The tastevin is the swallow cup hung from a ribbon around a sommelier's neck. It kind of looks like an ashtray. Today, a Sommelier is a restaurant employee who orders and maintains the wines sold in the restaurant and usually has extensive knowledge about wine and food pairings. Historically a tastevin use goes back a few hundred years. It was the cellar masters in Burgundy in France who developed this cup to sample wine while down in the cellar. It was a time when candles or torches were the light source. These cups often have angular nooks and crannies and/or the bottom center is raised slightly. The tastevin were made of silver and the design of nooks was to catch and reflect the poor light thereby making it easier to check the color and clarity of the wine. Today it is a nod to tradition when a sommelier wears and uses this cup. IP: Logged |
June Martin Forum Master Posts: 1326 |
posted 03-25-2003 09:05 PM
Could it be a nut scoop? IP: Logged |
FredZ Posts: 1070 |
posted 03-25-2003 09:23 PM
A tastevin is my vote because of the convex dimple in the bowl. My guess is that this is some victorian interpretation of what a wine taster should look like with a longer handle. Fred IP: Logged |
labarbedor Posts: 353 |
posted 03-26-2003 06:54 PM
I've tried to resist commenting on this thing. First let me say that I really have no idea what it is, but I do collect wine tasters. If it is a wine taster, it is a very poor design. It is hard enough to hold a normal taster, put it on a long handle and I won't be responsible for the carpet. Being French I am all too happy to take credit for inventing the wine taster, but we might as well take credit for inventing wine (we didn't but like the add says we just make it better). A wine taster in France is a go�te-vin, taste-vin or tasse � vin. They are used interchangeably depending on the region. Really they are just a form that is a continuation of wine cups from antiquity. In the 14th or 15th century you would have used a cup for wine (in wine drinking countries) and while it may have been a wine tasting cup if you were a merchant they were also domentic ware. This can be seen in the form found in Bordeaux which has no handle and little decoration and has not changed in form for at least 500 years. In Normandy where flat thumb pieces are found they are called wine cups and were actually used to drink wine from well into the 18th century. Of course wine tasters became a business item made from silver for utilitarian reasons not as a matter of luxury. Wine tasters are rare in Burgundy and I would guess the most common source would be the Loire Valley or Paris. While it may be romantic to think of a producer in his cave, I bet as many or more were used by merchants. They are found in some countries that don't really produce wine. England had them as early as the 15th century. Over the years certain designs were used some best for white wine some for red, of course many have a mixture of forms so they work well for both. They work as well today whatever the light source. I believe they are not as often used because they don't concentrate the oder as well as some glasses, also they are hard to swirl, perhaps the price doesn't help either. Maurice IP: Logged |
Paul Lemieux Posts: 1792 |
posted 03-26-2003 07:32 PM
I also have doubts about this being a tastevin. I would sooner guess a nut scoop, as June suggested, or perhaps a bon bon scoop. Also, Turner shows a similarly sized server, also with an unpierced bowl, in Towle's Georgian pattern and identifies it as a "sugar shaker". Presumably he got this designation from an old catalog. Perhaps this is Durgin's version of that piece? IP: Logged |
labarbedor Posts: 353 |
posted 03-26-2003 11:09 PM
Hey, I want to agree with M. Paul Lemieux not just because he agreed with me, not just because his name reminds me of Lemming (and therefore one follows), not because he obviously is d'oringine francaise, but becaue he rather subtely points out the confusion put in place by the producers. Somebody told me 35 years ago that Tiffany had declared turquoise a semi-precious stone. My reaction is that Tiffany, after they started selling men's diamonds, would declare "road apples" a semi-precious stone if they could get away with it. The point being that in the "sterling" period American producers would do almost anything to come up with a new serving piece so that buyers would pay too much for a new piece for their set. We could all spend our lives trying to figure out what they called this, but I doubt logic will have anything to do with it. Unless we get the catalogue, we are just guessing. Remember they were more inventive than we SHOULD be. Maurice IP: Logged |
Arg(um)entum Posts: 304 |
posted 03-26-2003 11:11 PM
Here is another one that doesn't look too inviting to use yet the vendor describes it as a wine taster by Maurice Freeman, London, 1898. What else could this thing be? The simple explanation may be that it is a wine-taster made for the 'gift market', not meant ever to be actually used. But that still per-supposes that this shape (i.e. with the long handle) was at one time made as a working type. quote: IP: Logged |
labarbedor Posts: 353 |
posted 03-26-2003 11:52 PM
Ok, I guess I should have talked to my lawyer first. He told me to say I am not responsible for things made by people with the same prenom. Also I would like to say this is a case of "road apples". I wish I could in all honesty sell every concave piece of silver as a "wine taster" but I don't think that really works. Maurice IP: Logged |
dragonflywink Posts: 993 |
posted 03-27-2003 01:47 AM
Just putting my two cents worth in. My initial impression of the first spoon was that it's a bonbon or nut spoon with an uncommon bowl. The piece that Arg(um)entum shows is a monkey or Dutch cream spoon. Most that I've found, have Dutch hallmarks (at least one with pseudo-marks), though some have had British import marks, and at least one with an American jewelers mark (though the name eludes me at the moment). Virtually all that I've seen have been from the 1890s, though I understand that they originally date to the 1700s. How odd that this dealer would call it a wine taster. Recently exchanged comments with a charming British silver dealer who had misidentified a Jensen open salt as a tea caddy spoon. He was amused to discover its true use because he'd seen several sold as tea caddy spoons. I guess everyone has different perceptions, I've picked up many an item and guessed at its purpose, only to discover the completely different (and obvious!) true use. Cheryl ;o) IP: Logged |
vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 03-27-2003 07:42 AM
The spoon photos posted by Arg is a Dutch form usually called a monkey spoon. This is the first English example I've seen. Tradition has it that they were hung on the edge of a punch bowl at wedding ceremonies. I was going to suggest the original spoon in this posting was for pouring some sort of sauce or melted butter, but there is no pouring spout. IP: Logged |
dragonflywink Posts: 993 |
posted 03-27-2003 02:28 PM
A couple of years ago, there was an interesting series of letters from Dutch collectors in Silver Magazine's Information Please section. Basically said that they were unfamiliar with the term "monkey spoon" and that these pieces were used for spooning cream from a bowl. Apparently, they gained popularity in late Victorian England and the U.S., and the Dutch silversmiths were happy to provide plenty of them. Perhaps the maker of the one shown here decided to cut out the middleman and make his own. Most are not made particularly well made (I like them anyway!). I have three right now, can post photos if anyone is interested. Cheryl IP: Logged |
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 03-27-2003 03:36 PM
I think the Monkey spoon deserves its own thread so I have started one here: IP: Logged |
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