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 Machine made vs handmade
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| Author | Topic: Machine made vs handmade |
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Samantha Posts: 1 |
posted 12-07-2004 07:44 PM
  
Thank you to those who answered my post a few days ago about purchasing my first set of sterling flatware. If no one minds, I have a few more questions. What are the differences between hand crafted flatware vs machine made? I saw that Old Newbury Crafters is one company that makes hand crafted silver. Are there any other manufacturers that you recommend I look into? Thanks again! IP: Logged |
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middletom Posts: 467 |
posted 03-23-2005 09:27 PM
Samantha, I just came across your inquiry of last December. I'll try to answer, if you are still interested. Handwrought silver, at least as made at ONC, is hand forged with a hammer or hammers. This is done on an anvil. This causes specific traits of handwrought silver, such as great hardness of the silver from it being work hardened, often a texture in the piece's appearance because of the subtle remaining effects of the hammering. Machine made silver lacks that hardness, tends to be more of one thickness throughout the length of the piece, and with some exceptions, is more ornate in design. The balance and general feel of handwrought silver is superior to machine made, but that is a subjective opinion. That is a nutshell explanation, but perhaps others can add more and better information. Hope it helps. IP: Logged |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 03-23-2005 11:14 PM
Well, I happen to agree with you, middletom, but hesitate to maybe open Pandora's Box once again. I remember when originally getting interested in pocket watches, I was drawn to early American makes such as Elgin (National) and Waltham (American) makes. An English acquaintance, who shares my appreciation of Japanese swords, asked me why I would collect machine made pieces such as those mentioned, when for the same cost or less, I could collect earlier, hand made British pieces? It took a while for the sage advice to sink in. And as it did, I lost agreement with other pocket watch aficionados who couldn't see anything beyond seven position and up-down railroad watches. I now feel the same about silver flatware. The Victorian era punch press pieces are indeed ornate, but I feel a majority (not ALL, but a majority) of that era's patterns were derivative and overly fussy, complication for complication sake, acanthus wars. I much prefer the simpler, earlier hand made pieces. But different strokes for different folks. Some of those with the opposite predilection can be quite defensive about perceived aesthetics, so I'll leave it at that, been there, done that, no more, no thanks! I imagine Samantha is long gone, but it's nice to see perhaps a kindred spirit out there! Keep the faith (Hanoverian, Old English, and hand swagged patterns)! IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 03-24-2005 08:27 PM
Just to play devils advocate, with an awareness of the irony that, as a maker like Middletom I hand forge spoons, the beauty of craftsmanship in the Victorian era was in the die making. The skill of the work is almost hidden by the "machine" like perfection of the end result. Meaning it is sometimes hard to believe these dies were made by hand. Like wise a Waltham watch is admirable because of the perfection of the early hand made machines that created these mass produced wonders. Another irony is that I rented workshop space for six years in the 5 block long Waltham Watch Co. building and rescued some of those machines from the dumpster [a friend got a old 18in. squ. screw making machine going, wire in one end and tiny slotted and threaded screws out the other!]. To end on the right note it is still with wonder and joy that I forge a spoon after 30 years, there is a magic in the plasticity of the metal and a hand made spoon does have a great feel. I too would rather buy (and have) an old broken watch works hand made in London with a fusee (sp?) chain and hand engraved details because it has a perfection that never used a machine to achieve. At the same time isn't it about taste which is subjective and Victorian flat ware and Waltham watches have a beauty too? I guess my point if any is that we (not Nihantochiken, but modern people) sometimes loose sight of the skill and genius in the industrial revolution that had its foundation on brilliant craftspeople whose skills were formed by hand work. P.S. my modest collection of spoons is pre-1850 IP: Logged |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 03-25-2005 12:46 AM
I appreciate your response, Agleopar, and agree with much of what you said. I myself mentioned in the earlier thread that I felt that most of the art in Victorian flatware was in the dies, not in the resulting punch press pieces themselves. But there is a difference between art and craft. The die makers were indeed craftsmen. But they were constrained to fashion dies in (my opinion) derivative and overly ornate patterns, fashioned by the supposed "artists", who were, in retrospect, short in supply in those days, at least in the directive levels. I liken it to the artistic heights of Japanese prints in the mid-1800s (same division of labor, but different results). The Japanese print masters, such as Hiroshige and Hokusai, never cut a woodblock in their lives. They were artists, basically painters. The print block makers were craftsmen trained to cut blocks per predetermined patterns. The artists never cut a print block, and the block makers never composed a personally original piece. And so it was with the Victorian flatware dies. But I will say, in most cases, I admire the craftsmanship of the the Victorian die makers far more than I do the pattern "artists". JMHO. IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 03-25-2005 06:57 AM
Yes to the above, and it struck me that part of what we are rambling on about is the division of designer/maker. I think what you and I like is the “spirit” of a piece of art/craft that has the feel of being made by the person who conceived it. IP: Logged |
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FredZ Posts: 1070 |
posted 03-25-2005 01:47 PM
It is a pleasure and delight to eat with well made handwrought flatware. I love the subtleties of the hand hammered surface. Perhaps that is why am a "Hammerman" who loves the process as much as the finished product. Fred IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 04-13-2005 09:52 AM
This is what happens when a curator has free time. But this is personal. As a huge fan of patterned flatware, and the peculiarly American-ness of that obsessive phenomenon (be just like everybody else: but be completely unique and individual, too--the American dichotomy) I read this thread with interest. I love and (personally, not for the Museum) collect random forks and spoons in patterns just for the pattern. But this past season I was in London and purchased a 1750s Hanoverian tablespoon, to add to the little collection I use to eat my cereal in the morning. Every time I use it, I am astonished at how it fits my hand, how well designed it is to function as a spoon. But, on the other hand I'd never want to own more than one Hanoverian spoon, because they're just boring. So, I love patterns (my Tiffany "Japanese" fork is reserved for my use only!) but I admit that they usually don't have the lovely feel of early stuff that was designed for function more than style. IP: Logged |
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FredZ Posts: 1070 |
posted 04-13-2005 11:29 AM
It is a pleasure to read of the likes and dislikes of of our members. These differences make the collecting and using of silver so much fun. I love using my simple handwrought flaware made by David Carlson and my wife loves her machine made Repousse design by Kirk. We recently entertained and set the table with alternated each place settings with both patterns. "Not sure what Miss Manners or Emily Post would say" Fred IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 04-13-2005 11:31 PM
It seems that as I grow older the thing that makes people different is taste. It is subjective and never wrong and one can't argue with it. I love the Georgian set of mixed flatware a friend in London put together for my wife and I as a wedding present. Ulysses likes a great pattern a la Tiffany. We both respect the other and can see their merits, but are turned on by opposites. One thing about that Hanoverian spoon is that the form of the spoon was perfected by then and what one feels in the hand is a perfect confluence of balance and form, it can't get any better, only possibly (if you like the look) it gets more decorative. One last thought on a tangent is that as a maker of forged spoons in the 21st century I do not have to follow fashion and can "play" (also not being held back by machines) when I make a spoon. It is a pity there are not more "traditional" makers like Middletom and Fredz who also could make a well made spoon, but not to an old pattern, now that makers have freedom from societal tastes. IP: Logged |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 04-15-2005 12:11 AM
Great responses, all! Ulysses, I have to agree, my favorite "standard" pattern is Hanoverian. Well, at least the fork handles curve the same way as do those of the spoons! Okay, truth be known, I could be led astray at any time by an interloping Onslow floozie, but I am but a weak mortal male susceptible at any time to a quick display of organic, sexy flash! Lucky for me, the usual prices of Onslow pieces generally keep me on the straight and narrow. Not that I won't sin, it's just that I can't afford to!!! Anywho, I still must profess admiration for the hand made forms, particularly the trefid, dognose, Hanoverian, Old English, and, at times, even the early fiddle pattern pieces. And the Onslow floozies, of course!!! IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 04-15-2005 12:51 PM
quote: In considering the functionality of the Hanoverian design, it is well to remember that it was also intended to lie flat on the table with the bowl facing downwards. The upturned end (down turned when upside down on the table) was undoubtedly intended to lift the stem a bit so it could be grasped more easily by the fingers when being picked up. When spoons were turned over so that they rested with the bowl upwards, the handles were then turned down at the end, as in the Old English style fiddle handles, or the stems were arched upwards in the French style fiddles which retained the upturned tip. When one looks at a Hanoverian casually, one might think "When you have seen one Hanoverian, you have seen them all," especially when compared to later patterned silver. But whether or not Hanoverians are to be considered boring nay depend upon how critically one looks at them. The Hanoverian design, and its precursors, the trefid and wavy-end, lasted for a century, which attests to the popularity of the form. There are many variations in design to be considered, some more subtle than others, which arose over that span of time. See the threads on the Bancker (c. 1735 Adrian Bancker coin silver spoon) and Besly (Traveling silversmith, well-traveled spoon) spoons for examples and further discussion. American Hanoverians are almost uniformly plain, except for handle ridges and tips, as well as decorations (usually shells, drops, or rattails) on the bowl backs, but the English were more adventurous. Pickford (Silver Flatware) shows a number of decorative patterns on Hanoverian handles, and Luddington (Starting to Collect Silver) illustrates a number of "pictureback" designs that appear on Hanoverian bowls. IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 04-16-2005 02:23 PM
I have realized, now that my comments are being pulled "out of context" I'd better qualify them! I didn't mean to imply that Hanoverian spoons were more boring that anything else. I meant that, to me, owning more than one spoon (or fork) in ANY pattern is boring. I have become addicted to variety. So my breakfast cereal spoons now consist of (in order of date): a Hanoverian rattail from the 1750s, an English spoon with the down-turned handle from the 1770s; a Downing & Phelps from Newark, ca. 1810; a Gale gothic spoon dated 1848; a spoon by Jaccard from St. Louis dated 1848 (wedding silver of Julia and Ulysses S. Grant), a Gorham "Medallion" spoon dated 1865 (bought by Ulysses S. Grant in that year); and a Whiting "English King" spoon from the 1880s, bought for my grandfather as a baby. I'm just a silver whore and can't use the same spoon twice in a row. And if you don't behave I'll tell you about my forks. IP: Logged |
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