posted 10-24-2005 09:47 PM            

My personal feeling is that it is not. This is not corned beef, it is a precious metal that has been worked and shaped into an item that is both useful and beautiful. The weight should have nothing to do with it.

On the other hand, people keep demanding the information.

posted 10-24-2005 10:25 PM            

When silver items were converted to coin and vice versa, weight and purity would have determined value. I doubt that this detail would tell a buyer that much.

Good luck,
Tom

posted 10-24-2005 11:06 PM            

Don't know if this helps but perhaps those buying silver want to know if at least they will get their "money's worth." I have also heard it mentioned that for example (I am just making up figures here), if Silver is say 5 dollars an ounce why by the same token Tiffany silver is valued at 15 dollars an ounce....... I don't know, maybe someone can tell me?

Also obviously I guess, a silver spoon or whatever can have different weights, not every manufacturer puts the same amount of silver in its piece. As you say, silver is silver & has a spot market value.

However it seems manufacturer makes a difference for some reason, perhaps that is what they are basing the price on, I can readily understand how design etc. would certainly come into play in terms of craftsmanship for added value but for the weight alone????????

OTOH why not just give the weight & make them happy, then you don't have to have them ask the question.

I hope you can understand what I am trying to get across.

Have a great day!
Jersey

posted 10-24-2005 11:42 PM            

Really quick .. and I will follow up later.
All of the major Auction house list silver by weight in their catalogues.

Later,

posted 10-25-2005 12:17 AM            

For so long gold and silver were considered bankable comodities. Families tied up fortunes in silver as a hedge against inflation or war.

Until the 20th century, silver was sold by weight. Wages for the silversmiths, were not high compared to the cost of the silver.

I am pretty sure that auctions started out listing the weight of silver and gold objects
to inform the public of the minimum value of the object.

As a small time dealer in silver, and buyer (and seller) on the great nameless on line auction company, I find that the more information I have on an object, the better decision I can make concerning weather or not to bid, as well as how high I should bid.

Since, in most cases, I can't touch, inspect, or fondle the auction item, the more information I have on it, the more informed my decision will be. Weight is one of those variables as is size and who made it. Good photos are also a must

Hope this helps..

Please list weights on your auctions..
You will get fewer questions and probably higher bids.

Thanks.

posted 10-25-2005 12:20 AM            

One more thing.. If you are selling in person, the weight does not matter as much as it does on an online auction. The touchy-feely aspect will usually overcome the need to know the weight.

Respectfully,

posted 10-25-2005 03:32 PM            

I don't see very many melt sharks around these days, now that silver has so little value as a precious metal. A typical spoon for example would barely yield more than $5 worth of metal and how many undamaged $5 sterling spoons to you see people offering for sale?

posted 10-25-2005 04:21 PM            

Frankly, my interest in silver was sparked by a desire for bullion. I soon discovered buying sterling formed objects was a cheaper way to acquire the metal than by ingot - I can often buy silver spoons and forks at a fraction of their melt value (not generally true of Georgian sugar tongs, but sometimes... ) I also find very nice machine turned bowls from the 50's and 60's at or less than intrinsic value. The development of my interest in tongs has led away from intrinsic considerations, but I'd still chose the heavier of 2 pieces, other factors being equal. 6" tongs weighing 26 grams can be rather flimsy, 53 grams rather stout (and the difference may be difficult to identify in typical photos).

Just remember, for most older pieces weight was a major factor when initially purchased, why should that have changed? Not every collector can focus on the purely artistic aspects - else so many more nice, utilitarian pieces would be scraped, leaving a very narrow universe to our collecting [as well as leaving most of us out in the cold, pricewise].

posted 10-25-2005 06:18 PM            

DALE..
It has been 20+ years since folks ran around with scales.. I should know.. I was one of them. 1979 through 1981 or so. Not cool anymore.

Silver prices by the ounce have flopped recently from around $5.00 per troy oz. to a little over $8.00 per oz. Current price is $7.66 per oz.

And as a dealer, I buy flatware (lower end patterns) from a scrap dealer, that then goes into my $10. box which I put out at shows. When the price of silver rises, as it has done recently, I can't put forks or soup spoons in the "cheap" box, because they cost me $10. or more each. On the + side, I can now scrap out the entire box and at least break even.

KIMO..
There are silver sharks around, just not to many of them. They thrive in small ponds and will generally fail at online auctions where large groups of educated buyers (and former sharks) exist. Yes, I buy like you do, from dealers and at auctions, where I can guess weights and underpay accordingly. God bless Franklin Mint!

Also, yes.. better photos and descriptions of your auction items help bring higher final bid prices. If you care.. it shows!

SALMONEED...
Good point on listing in both grams and troy oz. Some folks do not have the math skills to convert grams to oz., so it is in our best interest to help them. Thank goodness that there are a lot of sellers who list the weight as ounces "on my postal scale". It is a starting point.

We all love silver!

Marc

posted 10-25-2005 08:06 PM            

Anyway, this is something that I perhaps have had too many rough times over. I have learned to take a hard line with the weight people at shows. My own reasoning is that there is a price below which it is not worth my while to sell things. Generally it is $10 per piece. And I won't put out things at less than that.

One thing I do find rather disconcerting is to see sellers putting up and moving silver at less than scrap over and over again. I can understand this happening once in a while. But consistently? It always makes me wonder.

The Franklin Mint makes things that are technically good, but not my taste. I again wonder why they fail to bring scrap? Is it that hard to find a scrap buyer in some places?

posted 10-25-2005 08:49 PM            

A heavier piece is less prone to dents and other damage.

posted 10-25-2005 09:40 PM            

I recommend the weight listed, at least on the better stuff.

asheland

posted 10-25-2005 11:30 PM            

Swarter certainly brings up a valid point, as silver if too thin can be flimsy. He also notes that weight can be useful in determining its authenticity and other research endeavors. These remarks make a lot of sense to me. Curators and silver book authors would certainly agree with this rationale and if they do measure weight for their own research why not include it with their descriptions for the benefit of others doing research.

A second reason proposed is that silver is a commodity in the same way as gold, diamonds and other precious metals are and as a result should be treated the same. There seems to be a difference of opinion as to whether the current price of silver is high enough to spark the interest of scrap dealers, but there is no doubt that the price has certainly been sufficiently high in the past and I would never say never that it would not rise again. It obviously is important to some as a reason to buy or not to buy (particularly if this is how you make your income).

Another reason proposed it that customers expect to have this information and without it they will not buy. Perhaps the old slogan "The customer is always right" controls this situation. If I sold silver I think I would quietly fall in line and buy a scale. This perhaps is particularly true for on-line purchases where touch is not available. I do not buy on line very often and perhaps if I did I would be more interested in weight.

Kayee also brings up an interesting point that different cultures have different expectations about silver. As one with all German ancestors it took me quite a while to replace the durability, sturdiness, and permanence qualities in decorative arts with the imaginative, innovative and creative values that I feel when looking at and holding the object. The wonderful thing about collecting silver and perhaps anything is that there is no right or wrong answer. If you follow Joseph Campbell's advice to follow your bliss one can not go wrong.

posted 10-26-2005 01:44 AM            

Dale, Lots of general line dealers are in business to make money, and as such if they get an entire estate, with some silver, they are thrilled to blow it out for more than they paid, whether or not it is above or below scrap. They are ignorant of silver the way I am ignorant of fine china. When I get a set of china, all I want is it GONE,.. I don't want to maximize the profit, just make some profit.

Concerning the price of crap (scrap), I find that no one believes an auctioneer who tells their audience, "this bowl will scrap for $45.", even if it is true... It will usually go for far less. I think it is a trust issue.

Also, in the owner/operator business of dealing with the public, I find a little Zen goes a long way.

Customer:"Where do you get your merchandise?"
Dealer: "We buy it from dead people!"
------
The mass of a silver object does equal quality, up to a certain point, at which it becomes overkill.

posted 10-28-2005 09:06 PM            

Another way to compare is looking at the best one could buy in the 1870's. A Gorham baby cup with engraved and chased decoration, cast handle, acid etched and gilt, approximate weight 4-5 oz., cost $6 for the silver and $6 for the fashioning and it retailed at the NYC store for $24.

The same cup today would retail for $2,000 (that is a guess and may be low) and the silver would cost $60.

The irony to me is that the 1870 cup was expensive but a1/4 of the expense was silver and I am sure Gorham was promoting that fact. If a certain contemporary store (that likes blue) had that same cup today I do not think the weight would be mentioned.

posted 10-29-2005 03:14 PM            

Certainly weight may be a marginal consideration at the upper end of aesthetics or for museum-quality pieces, but for more modest collectors of modest items, weight can be a trigger factor in the bid/no bid decision. Intrinsic (metal) value provides a bottom to the value of a piece when we can't properly judge the value (due to a wide variety of factors). As well, factual information cannot easily be disputed, unlike subjective information (how much junk is listed as 'nice', 'lovely', 'delightful', even 'excellent'?). When I received a tongs listed as 5" and it was only 4", I had a sound basis for complaint. Nobody lists an item as 'flimsy' or 'underweight', but they will list it as 'heavy' (when it's not). When weight is listed (and not only in 'ounces'), no one need guess.

Finally, if and when items sell for less than their melt value - it's usually because the weight was withheld information (or the bidders were narrow-minded aesthetes! ). I love to see 'great' pieces, but will likely never own one.

posted 10-29-2005 05:19 PM            

It also occurs to me, apropos of Ulysses's comments, to suggest that -- in my eyes, at least -- weight is more of an aesthetic concern with some pieces than others. Georgian and other 18th-century silver, for example, derives much of its visual and tactile appeal from its simple but substantial presence. With such pieces, a heavier weight in the hand enhances this sense of solidity and dignity. With machine-made Art Nouveau pieces like the ones Ulysses describes, whose appeal is -- conversely -- in their light, airy intricacy, weight might not play an equal aesthetic role. (Concerns about fragility would be even more pronounced, though.)

Also, pieces in a museum are rarely handled, whereas silver in private hands often is (and is even used). So weight might be less on curators' minds than collectors'. But to me, the "heft" is an essential part of the aesthetic experience of silver -- one of the things that makes owning a tankard different from looking at a picture of one in a book (or from looking at it in a museum case).

posted 10-30-2005 12:58 AM            

I need to elaborate on my quote "The mass of a silver object does equal quality, up to a certain point, at which it becomes overkill."

What I am trying to convey is that one bowl made by Gorham, for example, could be produced in several gauges from thin and usable through medium and heavy, and still work. The thicker the wall of the bowl, the more durable. It can also be made ridiculaslly heavy. This would be the overkill I am talking about.

Would I like my Unger Brothers match safes and fancy bowls to be of heavier gauge sterling..? You bet! Then I would not have to get a seam repaired, or a wear through point on a bowl soldered.

And yes.. Art is in the eye of the beholder.

The best as always..

posted 10-30-2005 11:10 PM            

My original concern was with items of ordinary 20th century provenance. We sell endless numbers of salt shakers, butter pats, match book covers and 20th century mass produced flatware. All of which are known items with which I would think the silver buying public is familiar. Yet every now and then I receive a wave of questions asking for the weight. And there are always a few about weighted items, which can not be weighed accurately.

What puzzles me is that this comes in clumps. Weeks pass with no one asking how much the Mary Chilton seafood fork weighs, and then a whole bunch of inquiries. Which makes me wonder what is generating this flood of interest at certain times.

My own policy is that I weigh signifigant items. Older silver, pre-1880. Large pieces. Hand made items. High priced items. I do not weigh things selling for under $25. Nor do I do this with silver jewelry. I tend to feel that anyone asking the weight of a souvenir spoon is not serious: either you want the Methodist Church in Elma IA or you don't. Weight has nothing to do with it.

Our auctions always have 5 crystal clear photos of the object including the mark and one with the object next to a ruler. Even then I get question about how long the 8" fork is.

This is simply utilitarian and pretty used silver. These pieces have no investment value per se. They are meant to complement a way of entertaining, which they do wonderfully. They are very nice pieces. Why anyone should want the weight on butter pats surprises me.

posted 10-31-2005 09:43 AM            

Reassurance, or because someone mentioned silver weight on HGTV or read it in "Town & Country". Lord knows, that when Martha mentions punch ladles, or wine tasters, I sell a raft of them.

Marc

posted 12-10-2005 01:24 PM            

I'm not sure this is cause for celebration.