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Author	Topic: Antique or Vintage Silver
T-Bird-Art Posts: 143 Registered: Mar 2000	posted 11-18-2005 06:20 PM [01-2357] How old must a piece of Flatware/Hollowware be - to be considered an antique piece of silver ? IP: Logged
Waylander Posts: 131 Registered: Sep 2004	posted 11-18-2005 06:36 PM This is a question in the vein of "how long is a piece of string". The short question answer is that such determination lies, IMHO, in the eye of the beholder. Waylander IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 11-18-2005 10:25 PM The European definition of antique is 100 years plucs one. However, as Waylander pointed out, age is in the eye of the beholder. I once visited an antique shop in Amsterdam only to find out that the 17-18th century pieces were way out of my price range. When I told the dealer that I generally collect 19th pieces, he replied, "Oh, you want the flea market down the road!" Tom IP: Logged
T-Bird-Art Posts: 143 Registered: Mar 2000	posted 11-18-2005 11:01 PM Thanks Guys. I didn't realize I was pushing on a string here. IP: Logged
Russell Posts: 52 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 11-23-2005 07:06 PM Hi All, Back in the 1950's, the legal (Federal Law, I think...) definition of an "antique" was changed. It used to be any item that was over 100 years of age by 1936; now, the law reads, any item that is in excess of 100 years of age at time of sale. Sorry, I can't quote the particular statute, chapter and verse. Russell IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 Registered: Apr 93	posted 11-24-2005 10:56 AM argentum1 posted 11-24-2005 09:32 AM in the New Members' Forum: quote: ...at what point does an antique become an antique. The following may be of help. Harmonized Tariff Schedule of The United States(2005)-Supplement 1 This contains the phrase 'of at least 100 years of age'. In 1930 the tariff act cited 1830 as a date. Before this most item were made with the assistance of mechanical devices. Or it could be that even in 1930 100 years was the accepted standard. If you read the tariff it has multiple standards for multiple defined items. They get into Picture Frames of a like kind and like value. All the typical legalese. IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 Registered: Apr 93	posted 11-25-2005 06:59 AM outwest posted 11-25-2005 02:29 AM on the New Members' Forum: quote: Antiques used to be anything from Greek or Roman times. Now they call those Antiquities. Also, antique doesn't mean quality. Quality is far more important then age, don't you think?. In the book, "Antiques 101" by Frank Loomis he devotes an entire chapter to defining antique. I am going to mention some things here only because I thought they were pertinent and I just finished reading the book. The US government defined anything over 100 years old as antique and duty free when entering the country. This means that the definition of antique changes every year as things become antique that weren't the year before. An early definition of antique was anything hand made before 1820. Loomis calls this the elitest rule because nobody but millionaires and museums can afford antiques under this rule. The American definition of Antique is a lot different then the European definition. America as a integrated society is far younger then anything in Europe (or many places in the world for that matter). Something made in the US in 1800 is pretty ancient. Loomis considers anything made before 1920 as antique in this country. That leaves the collecting of it accessible to everyone. There are also semi-antiques(1920-40), mid century (1940-60), and retro (the 70's-90's). I think antiques are anything where the person who purchased it or made it is long gone. IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 11-25-2005 12:12 PM The distinctions Outwest makes explain why most bookstores and many books on this subject will have sections designated "antiques and collectibles." Antique has both a popular and legal definition, while collectible refers to desirable items of more recent origin. Of course, at some point collectibles become antiques. Tom IP: Logged
Dale Posts: 2132 Registered: Nov 2002	posted 11-26-2005 12:22 AM My own experience is that the market for used items is driven by memory and sentiment more than anything else. An antique is something that middle aged people remember their grandparents having. It doesn't matter how old it is. It doesn't matter how well it is designed. Quality of item says more about grandparent's financial status than it does about desirability. All the laws and criteria sort of collapse when you deal with sending a 100 plus year old item to Canada. When collector I knew bought a pre WW1 silver pattern and 1950's Currier and Ives china because that was what his grandmother had when he was a child in the 50's. The items were 45 years apart, but he regarded them as antique. Tea strainers are saleable not because they are old or beautiful. It is because many women remember when they were a child visisting grandma. She and grandma would have a tea party, using a strainer. I feel it is the living memory of times past that determines what is an antique. Comments? IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 11-26-2005 12:56 AM Dale, Everything you say is true, but for an historian memory means more than the span of even several generations of our own ancestors. Sentimental value spans centuries. I wonder whose hands made that "wedding spoon" in Dublin in 1774, which couple held it, what it meant to them. Were they happily married? How many children did they have? How many generations inherited the item, and how did the family finally lose it? Were the late 19th c. Russian spoons I bought in Tbilisi sold in haste for a few rubles by once prosperous people plunged into ruin by Revolution? Who was the apprentice or journeyman to left his anonymous mark on that sugar spoon from Exeter in 1838. Did he become a master himself and own his own shop? And so it goes - I find objects connect us with more than our own past. But then again, perhaps I just have an over active imagination. Have a nice weekend! Tom IP: Logged
FWG Posts: 845 Registered: Aug 2005	posted 11-26-2005 10:49 AM I have to agree with Tom. As a scholar, it is precisely those long histories that I find most interesting, and much of my research -- at least that part related to material culture -- has dealt with 'reading' such histories from objects (and their contexts, etc.). That's what archaeologists do, of course, and that was one of my first fields of training. But since I grew up in a family that didn't have much of anything old maybe I just don't have enough of those personal memories tied to material culture.... IP: Logged
FWG Posts: 845 Registered: Aug 2005	posted 11-26-2005 10:51 AM quote: All the laws and criteria sort of collapse when you deal with sending a 100 plus year old item to Canada. Dale, what did you mean by this? IP: Logged
Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 Registered: May 99	posted 11-28-2005 09:54 AM Oddly enough, curators find the term "antique" meaningless, except as a term of convenience, because we collect what we feel is important by whatever criteria we are using in a particular instance. I have purchased 1950s silver because of its designer. It wasn't as old as I am (and I am officialy semi-antique now). Conversely, I probably wouldn't take an 18th-century teaspoon as a gift without a really great family history, because we have more than enough spoons. Age sometimes makes things more expensive, but it is no guarantee of beauty or good craftsmanship. Silver from the 1850s is far less valuable than silver from the 1870s, because rococo revival is not desired and aesthetic style is. Art deco Tiffany silver is rarer than neo-grec Tiffany silver, and would be far more valuable, regardless of age. That said, to my mind 100 years or more is antique. But it is only meaningful because things that were only semi-antique when I was born are now antique, and that freaks me out. IP: Logged
Dale Posts: 2132 Registered: Nov 2002	posted 11-28-2005 12:15 PM Well, I ship things to Canada all the time and have problems. Like sending an antique ivory handled piece and having it confiscated. Customs will agree that it is over 100 years old, that it should be exempt, but they aren't going to do so. This is where the definition breaks down: antique items can suddenly be subject to modern laws even when the laws don't apply. IP: Logged
FWG Posts: 845 Registered: Aug 2005	posted 11-28-2005 04:36 PM Interesting. I've hand-carried antiques across (mostly Canada to US), and have occasionally had to talk them through, but the few things I've shipped (US to Canada) have gotten through. Canadian dealers I've talked with at shows here in NY haven't reported much trouble. Ivory can be sticky in many jurisdictions, though. I think if I had to ship an ivory piece I'd go to the expense of a bonded agent to see it through. And of course that would only be worthwhile for a pretty valuable piece.... IP: Logged
Kayvee Posts: 204 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 11-28-2005 05:01 PM So sorry to hear that you have had aggravation from Canada Customs. I concur that the problem was most likely the ivory. According to Section XXI of the Canadian Customs Tariff, antiques are defined as items "of an age exceeding 100 years." The full text of the tariff is available at Most Recent Customs Tariff – 2005 Section XIV of the tariff deals with precious metals. I bring antique silver to Canada regularly with no difficulty so far (touch wood). However, Canada Customs is notoriously rigorous about seizing articles made from endangered species, whatever their age. I believe the ivory handle on your item might have been the cause of your recent difficulty. Anything made of or containing ivory, including insulators on tea pots, is subject to seizure. It might be worthwhile to consult the tariff so that you can phrase your packing invoices in accordance with Canadian regulations. If you are a licensed antiques dealer, using a letterhead invoice also will help. As an aside, non-antique silver of U.S. manufacture is subject to preferential tariffs in accordance with NAFTA. Don't give up on shipping to Canada! IP: Logged
Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 Registered: May 99	posted 12-01-2005 08:59 AM Seriously folks, back in 1999 I helped work on a major exhibition on Tiffany & Co. that traveled only in Japan. The Newark Museum lent our "Viking" coffee set, made by Tiffany for the 1901 World's Fair. The IVORY INSULATORS in the handle of the coffee pot, since they were less than 100 years old, were considered too "iffy" to export to Japan, even for an art exhibit. So we ended up only lending the creamer and sugar. We couldn't prove the ivory was over 100 years old. Oy vey. IP: Logged

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