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Author	Topic: Engravings with Personality
dragonflywink Posts: 993 Registered: Dec 2002	posted 01-06-2006 02:06 PM [01-2374] Always love to see fine engraving and have some lovely examples. These two pieces are among my favorites because they just make me smile. Anyone else care to share theirs? Cheryl First was a gift from my Mom many years ago when she realized I was serious about this silver stuff. Lovely William Gale & Son sterling ladle with a very worried-looking knight (love the mustache). The other is a German souvenir spoon that could have been done by Disney artists, chubby little birds and a dragonfly that always makes me think of Evinrude from the Rescuers. IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 Registered: Apr 99	posted 01-06-2006 02:44 PM I've posted this 1765 Irish Masonic jewel before, but I think it worth another look for the tasty engraving IP: Logged
dragonflywink Posts: 993 Registered: Dec 2002	posted 03-19-2006 04:36 PM Don't know how I missed the second post on this one. Wonderful piece, wev! Especially like the all-seeing eye and that expressive face on the sun. Cheryl IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 03-19-2006 06:47 PM I just called attention to Lord Breadalbane's spoon (One that didn't get away) in another thread for a different reason, but it deserves mention again here, as it is my favorite. IP: Logged
IJP Posts: 326 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 03-19-2006 08:26 PM For newer visitors, there's a whole slew of very fine engraving work featured in the Artistic Monograms thread. One monogram engraving that I rather liked was the one shown below, on a circa 1871 Russian teaspoon. The monogram, and other decorative work, is engraved, then filled with a finely ground mixture of silver, sulfur, and lead, which is fired with the piece to create the alloy called niello. The monogram appears to be the Russian Cyrillic AЦ or AИ, although ЛГИ or ЛГЦ are also conceivable. (To view the spoons in their entirety, visit Russian spoon) IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 Registered: Apr 99	posted 03-19-2006 09:13 PM Engraved? Really? I rather think the term is etched, as with acid. To do such work with a burin would be a waste of labor-time and far less accurate. IP: Logged
IJP Posts: 326 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 03-20-2006 05:28 AM wev, you may be right in regard to this particular example of niellowork. I quote my own post from the Russian Spoon thread: quote: Notice the embellishments on the backs of the bowls. Looks to me (again, novice understanding of Russian silver work) like niello, in relief, perhaps etched As for my explanation of how niello is made, I simply paraphrased Alexander von Solodkoff (Russian Gold and Silverwork): quote: Niello (Italian, from the Latin nigellus, 'blackish', Russian chern') was a black to grey-black substance used as a filling for engraved decoration... applied to a silver or, less often, gold surface carved in low-relief and fired in a furnace so that the niello melts and adheres to the metal... Of course, I suppose niello can certainly be used to enhance etched work in much the same way, as you point out. I had thought, on viewing the teaspoons, that the embellishment on their backs was a combination of both etched and engraved work (The textured surface which results in the relief effect seems, to me, to have clearly been acid-etched; I had concluded, perhaps hastily, that the niello-filled black monogram and decorative arabesques were engraved, as I have certainly seen much finer and more detailed niello-work). I may be entirely wrong, in which case my inclusion of this work in a thread called Engravings with Personality would be erroneous and possibly misleading. My sincerest apologies. [This message has been edited by IJP (edited 05-28-2006).] IP: Logged
agleopar Posts: 850 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 03-20-2006 08:15 AM The ground for niello is engraved, almost carved because it is deeper than the usual engraving. Silver is so soft that it is quite easy to use a graver to remove it quickly and also very accurately. Different shaped gravers are used, square to cut the outlines and flat or half round to remove the back ground.This is how enamel is also done, niello is like a low temp enamel, very easy to make and use compared to enamel. And while we are trying to be accurate, the beautiful Lord Breadalbane's spoon is flat chased not engraved! IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 03-20-2006 12:37 PM Agleopar - I am not sure the original request was meant to be that restrictive, but we do strive for accuracy. However, often more than one technique is combined on one piece. How would you characterize this decoration (the black smudge below the scroll is a reflection)? IP: Logged
agleopar Posts: 850 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 03-20-2006 05:51 PM Swarter, sorry to be a nudge, it is only because I have seen flat chasing and engraving confused and the techniques misunderstood. When they are done well they can be hard to tell apart. Arthur Stone being a good example of a superb flat chaser whos touch was so light that it looks engraved. Now that I have made myself the expert I can't tell how your goblet is done. I can not make out the detail of lines. Guessing though, I'd say engraved, partly because there does not seem to be any evidence of chased lines inside the cup and also because it would be faster to engrave this design. Having said that I am not sure why the texture below the rim inside is so different... a close up would help. Nice cup, American? IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 03-20-2006 11:01 PM There is no texture on the outside background - just a trick of the lighting. there are no impressions telegraphed to the inside, but the silver is rather thick. My impression was that flat chasing was so called because it left the surface flat, with no raised impressions. Perhaps you could explain the difference between flat chasing and engraving? Here is an enlargement of another section: I would have called the dotted section on the upper left chased, and the lines engraved. You can see a few places where the graver slipped beyond the intended boundaries. I believe the cup is American; unfortunately it is unsigned. IP: Logged
agleopar Posts: 850 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 03-21-2006 09:59 AM For the reasons you give, no chasing showing on the inside and the slips, it is engraved. The slips could look very simular with flat chasing. Flat chasing is done with punches that are the size of a finger and shaped to give the right profile when the punch is tapped with a small light chasing hammer. The business end is usualy filed and polished to a fine chisel shape, not to cut but to impress. It can be sharpe or rounded depending on the line one wants. The most important part of all chasing is the pitch. For flat chasing it needs to be very hard as this will back the silver in a way that means it will not deform when the punch is struck. This means that the lines only show slightly on the back . If you used soft pitch the line would sink into the silver. When you look at new or unworn flat chasing the lines are like a tiny plowed lines, the very top edge is pushed up above the surfase of the surounding sheet. You can see this on the Breadalbane spoon, especially where the chaser used that to emphasize it for effect. Engraving is done with a very sharp tool with a wooden mushroom handle that fits in the palm of the hand. It is pushed into the metal and as the hand pushes it cuts a fine thread of silver out of the surface. The graver can be different shapes square, half round, flat, diamond etc. The square one is used the most, it is sharpened on the diagonal to a fine point and with this probably most of the goblet was engraved. IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 03-21-2006 12:05 PM A clear explanation. Thank you. IP: Logged
FWG Posts: 845 Registered: Aug 2005	posted 07-30-2006 06:46 PM Here's another nice example of engraving with personality, on a teaspoon handle (I got into some long-stored boxes this weekend, so I'm returning to some old threads): Although one might guess English from the style, the mark is McNEAR COIN, most likely for Samuel McNear of Boston (as listed in the 1865 city directory). An unusual orientation, and quite a cheerful-looking romping lion! IP: Logged
dragonflywink Posts: 993 Registered: Dec 2002	posted 04-04-2008 05:35 PM Pulled up this thread because Rian mentioned my worried knight, and there was FWG's lovely romping lion - here's my playful bull from a slightly abused 1937 British youth spoon, looks like they could have fun together despite their differing styles (and that pesky issue of lions seeing cattle as prey). ~Cheryl IP: Logged
rian Posts: 169 Registered: Jan 2006	posted 04-05-2008 06:21 AM Cheryl, thank you for finding this thread. I'm delighted to see your knight again--the other pieces too. What a great start for the week-end! IP: Logged
Marc Posts: 414 Registered: Jun 2002	posted 05-24-2008 03:09 PM Hi there all, Here is a really neat engraving from an award given in 1834 by "The Magistrates of Canongate". The motto of the town is "Sic Itur ad Astra", "thus one goes to the stars". Marc IP: Logged

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