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 Wakeley & Wheeler StagHunt Spoon - Marks?
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| Author | Topic: Wakeley & Wheeler StagHunt Spoon - Marks? |
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kinverroy Posts: 26 |
posted 05-05-2005 08:26 AM
  
[26-0425] I have a beautiful spoon with a stag hunt design and showing the maker's mark of James Wakeley and Frank Clarke Wheeler which I believe dates the spoon between 1884 and 1916. The only other mark is a number'1' on the back of the spoon. My puzzle is to why such a beautiful spoon appears to bear no other marks i.e. plate marks, hallmarks etc. Can anyone help? IP: Logged |
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Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 |
posted 05-05-2005 12:48 PM
Wonderful spoon - my guess is that it was part of a set (or full service) specially commissioned by a particular Hunt with a limited number of members, each member being allocated the number which would appear on the pieces. Either it hasn't come out, or you haven't posted a picture of the top side of the spoon. However if the underside is substantially more ornate than the top, this might suggest it was intended for use in Continental Europe, where spoons and forks were more commonly placed on the table "up-side-down" compared to British and US custom. If so, this might possibly explain the lack of additional marks. If silver, the absence of the official assay hallmarks might be accounted for by the fact that it was a special commission never offered for sale in England and immediately exported abroad. IP: Logged |
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kinverroy Posts: 26 |
posted 05-05-2005 01:26 PM
I assume that you are suggesting that because the top is more ornate then it is likely to be British/American. If it is British then does the absence of a mark indicate that it's not silver or plate or that it an illegal unhallmarked spoon? IP: Logged |
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Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 |
posted 05-05-2005 01:59 PM
Thanks for the photo - but please edit it to make it smaller or reformat it vertically! My continental argument has gone out the window, but even so there has to be a reason why this piece (if silver) was never assayed. Certainly earlier silversmiths often dodged the assaying and the payment of taxes this implied - but by the latter 19th century, was this so common? And even less likely on a piece of this quality? Perhaps the number might indicate it was a sample, made to show to a wealthy prospective client - but here I am clutching at straws... I understand that Wakely & Wheeler was bought out by Padgett & Braham Ltd in 1958, but that the name is still used. Padgett & Braham can be contacted at 10 Shacklewell Road, Stoke Newington, N16 7TA. Perhaps they also took over old records? IP: Logged |
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Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 |
posted 05-05-2005 07:48 PM
I now believe the design of your spoon was originally by Paul Storr in the early 19th century, and there are apparently boar, fox and stag hunt versions. Interestingly enough it is very similar to the so-called Bacchanalian pattern designed by Thomas Stothard for Rundell Bridge & Rundell c.1812. Certain the Bacchanalian, and probably the Hunt pattern, continued to be manufactured by Henry John Lias in the 1870s. Lias went into partnership with James Wakely in 1879 for five years before retiring. Then Frank Clarke Wheeler, a former apprentice of Lias, became a partner. Digging around on the internet, I see a Dessert Spoon by FH (could be Francis Howden)1861, Sugar Tongs by George Adams 1870, and a Caddy Spoon made in London 1876-77 by Henry Holland, all in this Stag Hunt Pattern. IP: Logged |
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Silver Lyon Posts: 363 |
posted 05-15-2005 04:02 PM
This was almost certainly a 'pattern' for sending to potential purchasers who has chosen the design from a printed source. It MAY be silver, but is probably not. Patterns were a common way of obtaining flatware orders throughout the c19th and first half of the c.20th. The need for them arose because customers were often surprised by the difference in appearance of the real thing as opposed to the drawing in the sample book they had chosen their design from. IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 05-15-2005 08:55 PM
Hi! Just as an aside, I was watching the Antiques Roadshow (from England) today, obviously an old repeat .Someone brought in 12 forks by Adams/Chawner in this pattern and they were described as being made in the Regency era by them. They are also refered to in Mr. William Hoods wonderful article about "Exceptional Nineteenth Century British Flatware" in Silver Magazine's March/April 2004 issue. BTW I also saw them for sale on ebay within the past couple of months .......I thought they were gorgeous. Thanks for listening! Jersey IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 05-16-2005 09:22 AM
Every time you sit down to watch Antiques Roadshow you need to take everything they say with not just a grain of salt but a pound of salt. I believe that show does great harm by spreading misinformation on both identifications and valuations. It does increase their ratings though. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 05-16-2005 12:32 PM
The original (English) Roadshow may be far more reliable on antiques (as distinguished from collectables) than the imitation (American), which is rather uneven - some of their people are good and some are not. Silver in particular has had problems on the American show, coming from all over the world, but the English show uses people like Ian Pickford and puts up mostly English silver, which they know well. (Of course, English viewers, who probably see an unexpurgated version, may have a different opinion than we Americans, who see only a 30 minute edited condensation on PBS.) IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 05-16-2005 01:04 PM
Thanks Swarter, I agree that the British version is far more accurate - I was referring to the American version which drives me batty. Even when they get the identification accurate they then frequently come up with valuations that seem designed to be sensational rather than a realistic expectation in an average auction or what a dealer may pay. IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 05-16-2005 10:23 PM
Hello again! When I referred to the English Roadshow, it was in the context of being surprised at seeing it at the same time that the question was posed about that particular pattern, and the fact that I had just recently read about it in the Silver magazine. No more, No less! I did not say (and maybe I should have, their reference to Storr as being the first they knew of to do this type of pattern etc.). I did not mention their monetary evaluation either, (against the forum rules), but I will say this from the research I did they were ON THE MONEY! We all know a lot of hype goes on for these shows but it is a where to go from, & I take it with 10 pounds of salt! You will then hopefully know enough to do your proper homework. That said, if you've heard enough quacks you know it's a duck, not a Kimodo dragon! Hope this puts a smile on your collective faces, we need more of them! Thanks for listening, stay safe where ever you are. Jersey! IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 05-16-2005 10:33 PM
Sorry Komodo dragon! Jersey IP: Logged |
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