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tline3open  GRADING SILVER QUALITY

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Author Topic:   GRADING SILVER QUALITY
jprice33

Posts: 204
Registered: Sep 2000

iconnumber posted 09-21-2007 05:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jprice33     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Quality of a piece of Silver can vary greatly depending on who you ask...barring obvious disposal damage or the like, I experience comments ranging from 'please don't even touch my pieces', to dissatisfaction over the slightest patina left within the pattern design of a pre 1900 Gorham pattern..when shopping for Silver, I try to take these factors into consideration and have noticed that most dealers are loose in terms of grading, as it directly relates to the rarity of the items...

In managing an Inventory that receives hundreds of thousands pieces of Silver Flatware & Hollowware per year, we use a 4 Tier Quality Grading System with 5 or more levels of Classification that account for the age and availability of the Pieces...

Each Pattern is classified a level based on it's age and that serves as the 'standard' for how strict or lenient to be when grading its quality...for example, an 1885 Sterling Spoon with a slight mis-shaped bowl may still be inventoried at "1st Quality", while a Stainless Steel Salad Fork in an "Active" pattern with a slight blemish to the tines may be reduced by 1/4 Grade...for older patterns, one quality strike could infer 0-3 'downgrades' (each in 25% intervals)....

Scratches, Pitting, Plate-Wear, Pattern Wear, Altered Pieces, Dents, Rattles....

Sterling Silver is generally the easier of metal types to grade given the ability to remove scratches, straighten tines etc., and the most common 'downgrade' we encounter is with Knives that have Stainless Blades which can be pitted & "Hollow" Handles that can easily dent or 'shake/rattle'..a 1920's Sterling Knife with a minor ding at the tip may still qualify as "1st", while a 1970's and/or Active pattern must be free of any marks...one trick here becomes the patterns that were introduced in say the 1940's and are still being produced today...this places a 50 year old piece in the same classification as a Brand-New one...in some cases we'll "split" a pattern old/new based on the length of production and possible quality differences over those years...this contains additional levels of complication as it's very common for Silver manufacturers to continue to utilize & create dies with "older" back stamps...

Coin Silver pieces we tend to be very forgiving..given the obvious age criteria..the often seen dimple dents to Teaspoon Bowls can generate a discount, but most of those pieces pass as "Full" Grade..

Silverplate is perhaps the toughest to handle when determining quality levels, as those pieces can arrive more tarnished than others and plate-wear can be masked...they are also more time consuming for the polishers to handle and we have to guard against 'pitting' our polishers into situations where they're spending exuberant time cleaning 'lower-end' pieces...

Monogams can also trigger a downgrade, heavier in more recent or less desirable patterns..rare patterns in many cases are treated the same whether they have a monogram or not..


Stainless Steel, considering it's relative youth in comparison to the others falls 2nd in terms of difficulty, but is generally limited to pitting or pattern loss...Finish becomes vital in Stainless steel patterns, as Manufacturers seek sellable trends in the Market...Satin, Glossy, Gold, Frosted etc...

In the end, our customers become the standard by which we Grade, and while many would shudder at the thought of their pieces of Gorham Versailles hitting the buffing wheel, others want a mirror finish & every possibly scratch removed...as we fill their tables for their parties and help to preserve their traditions, it's ultimately up to them...

Curious how others determine/treat/consider quality?

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11520
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 09-21-2007 11:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Would a pattern grading worksheet look something like this?

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Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 09-21-2007 12:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your system sounds reasonable to me except for one important aspect of it. To me, I would not consider damaged flatware or hollowware as 'first quality' simply because it is an older pattern and more often found with such wear and tear issues than without them. By using the same term, 'first quality', for perfect pieces if they are newer and for moderately damaged pieces if they are older introduces a confusion that can easily lead to unnecessary and unhelpful customer distrust. Damaged examples are second quality, but you could say to customers that first quality examples are infrequently encountered due to age of a pattern, and when they are they carry a premium.

Scott's numerical system, or something along those lines seems to me to be more useful. At the same time, you could a system like this to educate less knowledgable customers by saying that for certain patterns of great age that some damage is typical due to the number of years it has been around. So if you were using a 100 point system you could say that a score of, let's say 80 or whatever, is considered typical and any examples that you may occassionally have available above that score are infrequently available and carry price premiums.

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 09-26-2007 12:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Either an item is new or used. If used, either it has wear or not. If it has wear, this can be classified into something more specific.

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swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 09-26-2007 01:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Have you looked at the system used to grade condition of coins? Sterling patterns at least would seem to be amenable to this type of grading of wear on surface details.

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 09-27-2007 01:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My own experience has always been that having a complicated grading system encourages customers to behave badly. Getting into tiffs over what is a very good +++ versus an extremely good --- is really a waste of time. There was a dealer whose grading system had over 100 gradations. Endless argument.

Yes, the system for grading coins. Have you ever tried to sell coins? Arrrggghh. All you do is argue endlessly about condition. For things in use, there is really no point in doing so.

I always encouraged my customers to pick out things whose condition matched the pieces they had on hand. Worked quite well for a long period of time.

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argentum1

Posts: 602
Registered: Apr 2004

iconnumber posted 09-27-2007 08:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Condition is extremely subjective and rarely objective. What is a ding or ping versus a dent. How many times have I heard dealers say "That just proves how old it is". But try to sell it back and suddenly it is badly damaged. Or try the dealer that buys Northern and sells Southern. A good description of an item and all its flaws, if any, combined with actually seeing the item is the best condition report. It also helps if the dealer will do a return policy. All of the dealers, except for two, that I have bought from over nearly forty years have been honest and forthcoming about what they are selling. None of them have gotten into a multi-tiered system of condition. Many will say 'take a look and see what you think' and then decide if you want it. I especially like that approach.

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Richard Kurtzman
Moderator

Posts: 768
Registered: Aug 2000

iconnumber posted 09-27-2007 10:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Kurtzman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
By the way, the fella who came up with the coin grading system is a silver collecter.

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jprice33

Posts: 204
Registered: Sep 2000

iconnumber posted 09-28-2007 06:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jprice33     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Too many tiers does cause complications...from a processing/efficiency standpoint primarily, and then a customer service one..leniency on returns is crucial for sure as subjectivity of course exists..

certain 'damages' are accepted at different levels for different Grade factors..this does not mean that by comparing all pieces of a certain class you won't find varience..our goal is to keep that varience as slight as possible..

we actually use a separate color polybag to designate to the polishers "handle with care"...can mean mnay things, but mainly serves as a flag..

I hear the point on 'damage is damage', & that's a tough one to address, introducing additional layers upon layers of grading..not sure it helps...for your grid example Scott, factors such as Pattern & Item Demand, while components in factoring a buy price, do become transparant to our inspectors when grading for quality...a pit is a pit, whether we have demand or not...others (myself) may make exceptions, but training all to recognize some of these factors proves often times more difficult than establishing a quality..

and yes, most dealers, when asked, that I've encountered have "very clean lots" of silver...despite the bumps and bruises..this changes (towards reality) with the heightened value of the items..

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 09-29-2007 01:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is a group of silver buyers who do expect to see wear and the vissicitudes of time in their silver. These sensible and realistic people should be applauded. And the people who want every 150 year old silver fork to look like it just came from the factory, well, loose interest in them as customers. Do not feed the tiger.

I tend to regard each statement about the wear on a silver item with a 'no sh*t Sherlock' response. These are old items; they have a history. They did not just come from the factory.

I personally find grading systems counterproductive.

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