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 Identifying collecting trends.
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| Author | Topic: Identifying collecting trends. |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 01-06-2008 07:32 PM
  
Identifying collecting trends. On the Internet, a few individual power buyers can cause everyone else to dig into their closets and suddenly there are lots of listings on auction sites and on antique sellers sites. This creates a lot of Internet activity on the listing/for sale side of things but are there resulting sales? Or maybe the web space is replaced by the next fad? And if there are web sales, are they speculator or collector sales? With the noise of the Internet and the growing silence from fewer and fewer brick and mortar antique shops, shows and dealers with a select clientele, it is not as easy as it once was to identify true collecting tends.
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 01-06-2008 10:08 PM
What appears to happen at the big auction site, is that collectors quickly get to know each other. They then appear to form rings where only one bids on an item. Somehow they later divvy it up. This tends to keep prices low, which means profits are also low. Which means that to make a living, the dealer has to put things up at a fairly high pace. It is difficult to have a steady stream of good silver. What appears to happen to most who persue the field, is they become pickers rather than dealers. And work with turning a quantity. Knowing a little about a lot of things. Internet sites really do not reward depth of knowlege the way the shops and stores did. What I did notice when I was an active dealer, was that people could rapidly put together a collection on the internet. The wife of a well known novelist took a fancy to late Victorian plated flatware. She bought several hundred pieces and then disapered. IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 01-07-2008 07:22 AM
I'm wondering if there are true sustained collecting areas anymore (in a more general sense). 19c Staffordshire transfer ware is largely dead in the water except for more exceptional pieces, same with depression glass. Primitives seem to have mostly declined and early American furniture seems to have lost a lot of ground. People who saved a lot of things starting 20, 30 or even forty years ago hoping to have a nice retirement nest egg find a lot of what they have isn't worth nearly what they thought it would be. Trendiness seems to have replaced a thoughtful and knowledgeable approach in almost all areas. IP: Logged |
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FredZ Posts: 1070 |
posted 01-07-2008 08:45 AM
I still see a demand for quality items in both the brick and mortar stores and the internet sites. Even the online auction sites will see top quality items sell high. Perhaps we are seeing an over abundance of items. The once rare seems to be less rare when you see them pop up on the auction sites at an alarming rate. Perhaps the flurry to rush and buy/bid has subsided due to the economic downtrend. I know that my taste has remained the same and my collecting habits have not drastically changed. I still visit brick and mortar stores and still browse the inernet sites for new items and information. I have seen the shops malls consolidate into fewer shops and many of the items I could have found locally at the store now appear on their internet auction site. The times are a changing and we must adapt. I return to the statement that quality will always retain value. Fred IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 01-07-2008 12:44 PM
I agree that the internet has changed the landscape in many ways. One way is that it has made silver more visible to very large numbers of people, which in turn has resulted in those people digging silver out of their hutches, closets and attics and selling it. Instead of a couple hundred serious silver dealers who were creating the market and values, there are now hundreds of thousands mini silver dealers in the form of anyone with a computer and a few pieces of neglected silver sitting in their dinning room hutch, or the back of a closet or among the rafters in their attic. Much of what was thought of as rare and valuable is no longer seen as such. The truly rare and fine objects seem to continue to do very well, but they are few and far between and for the most part they are not auctioned on the big web auction site - they go to the traditional big name brick and mortar auction houses or are sold directly by the higest end dealers with fancy shops in big cities. The usual silver inventory of most antique dealers and silver dealers does not fall into this stratospheric realm - it is more in the area of what is being turned out of people's hutches, closets, and attics in large quantities. This is painful to collectors and dealers alike as the market adjusts to the new understanding of market values and relative rarity. On the other hand I think it represents an opportunity for collectors to acquire nice but not truly rare silver at modest prices that were far higher in past years - sometimes for not much more than the silver content value. It also represents an opportunity to create a nice collection or complete sets relatively quickly compared to what it used to take. I think that things will settle down in another five to ten years as hutches, closets, and attics are slowly emptied, but it will take a while. I also think that collecting fads will speed up and peter out more quickly as collectors find that most of the "must have" objects are in good supply for the foreseeable future. Also I think that the kind of buzz that used to create such fads will be more drowned out in the fire hose stream of information and material coming on the market at the big auction website and all of the special interest forums. I see this not just with silver but all kinds of antiques and collectables. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 01-07-2008).] IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 01-07-2008 03:09 PM
one might also wonder how much of that silver coming out of hutches is going for scrap as prices are up again. I think what we are also seeing with these 'ripples' is an accelerated pace, with many more items coming on to the market in a much shorter period of time. IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 01-07-2008 05:11 PM
In England the Internet has revolutionised the small silver market. The price for large objects, candlesticks, coffe pots and the like , has actually fallen in real terms, whereas small items , already rising , has gone up far exceeeding inflation - all to my mind because of the Internet. If it can be easily mailed - it's saleable. By contrast the run of the mill silver tea services, especially post 1830 items has fallen to very little, if anything , over scrap value. The effect on prices of the Internet on small objects is easily seen in the buckle collecting area. In the past there were very few buckle collectors and shop dealers saw may be one collector who visited him/her on a regular basis. Most only saw a collector once or twice a year. Result - buckles very hard to sell - most dealers glad to get rid of them . Also as there are few about- very few people noticed them - so few people became collectors. Now anyone with a buckle for sale can put it on the Internet and the dozen or so world wide collectors will all see it . In a shop the same buckle would not be looked at by more than one or two people a year. Result- an increase in price and awareness. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 01-07-2008 06:06 PM
There are several other factors at work. One is that the quality of design for new items is much higher than it was 35 years ago. There is a wide range of interesting items out there. Second, reproductions are very widely available. While cruising the internet, I found a site devoted to corporate gifts. And buried among the desk sets and money clips, was a large collection of reproduction sterling match safes. They appeared to be taken from high style Art Nouveau ones. I could do a post on this if anyone would be interested. There is also an English smithery that will hand make classic sterling flatware patterns. There is also a site where the dealer has an endless supply of Love Disarmed. In new condition. Have seen several patterns like that. Not on the maker's website, but someone has a bunch of it. Apparently the dealer paid to have a lot made and is slowly peddling it. It used to be that the minimum order was 10,000 place settings but that number may have come down. [This message has been edited by Dale (edited 01-07-2008).] IP: Logged |
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jprice33 Posts: 204 |
posted 01-08-2008 05:45 AM
One way I spot trends is watching what other dealers buy from us...Modern is up right now, some of the 50's patterns we couldn't move 3 years ago are in high demand...also I see trends in buying by designer as opposed to pattern (which may have always been so)... The Manufacturers will sometimes offer "exclusives" in vintage patterns to dealers willing to buy enough of it...Love Disarmed fits that category, and has been a certain dealer's exclusive for over 10 years...once upon a time the owners of a small family silver shop gained similar rights to the VERSAILLES pattern, but the quality produced by Gorham at that time was off and the deal fizzled..Quantity demands are not fixed, depending on the business times, and business relations.. Pros & Cons to eBay/Internet selling for sure...the obvious advantage to the seller of course being the wider audience.. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-08-2008 01:24 PM
The collectors I know pay little or no heed to trends, rather they buy based on intellectual or aesthetic considerations. Having no desire to assist sellers here, I shall keep my observations on the oscillations of the marketplace to myself. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 01-08-2008 02:15 PM
WEV, Clearly the SSF is not here to directly assist buyers or sellers with their doing business. ...... Most of us started our collecting/investigating silver pursuits because something piqued our interest. It might have been a gift, whimsical purchase, something inherited, found in a drawer, a passing fad, etc. For most, it wasn't until later that our intellectual pursuits emerged. On the forums, more than once, we have wondered (discussed) that the appreciation for silver is not what it once was. We have shared stories about that is indiscriminately being taken to melt without a modicum of historic/artistic appreciation/consideration. As SSF members, we all would like the opportunity to explore, discover and discuss areas about silver which we have not previously explored. I would hope identifying what is just a passing trend verses an emerging/evolving/sustained area of collecting will help us covert more individuals to our shared interests & intellectual pursuits thereby generating more sharing/discussion at the SSF. IP: Logged |
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Richard Kurtzman Moderator Posts: 768 |
posted 01-20-2008 01:21 PM
A perspective from 2002. Changes in the Collector Market IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 01-20-2008 04:54 PM
This is not particularly "germain" to the current topic, but here goes anyway. While shopping at an Antiques Mall near Williamsburg, VA, a case was observed with miscellaneous items including a few pieces of coin silver and a quart sized zip lock bag with silver items in it. The label on the bag said sterling, coin, silverplate and Sheffied, $10. After confirming that the contents were true enough to the tag and the full price was correct, naturally a purchase was made. There were five sterling teaspoons (one of them by Duhme), five coin teaspoons and two coin soup(?) spoons along with a few odd pieces of silverplate in the bag. The silverplate items were given to a member of the mall's staff who runs a stall for the humane society. It seemed like the mall must have stashed a prize for some lucky customer, but that did not turn out to be the case. What a trend this could make. [This message has been edited by bascall (edited 01-20-2008).] IP: Logged |
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taloncrest Posts: 169 |
posted 01-20-2008 10:28 PM
I remember that post from 2002...I lurked in these forums for years before I registered. It was kind of sad, as there are names there that I don't recall having seen in a while. The price of silver is a problem to me. It's not as bad as it was during the silver bubble of '80, but it looks like it might be headed that way. For years not many people in the little auctions I went to paid much attention to silver. I could get nice things at reasonable prices. Often at shops in my three-state range I could find nice things reasonably, too. Sometimes at prices comparable to the big auction site or better. Nowadays, I will visit a shop where I could usually find an item or two in the old days and find out that people with scales had visited just a week or two before, and snatched up any bargains that were available. Just this month I purchased a dozen monogrammed Jac Rose teaspoons at an auction, paying more than I usually would as I prefer modern design to Victorian, just because I knew the person bidding against me was very likely to send them off to melt, and they were way too pretty to suffer that fate. They were in excellent condition, and were also marked with the name of a Chattanooga retailer. IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 01-21-2008 09:25 AM
If I may bring up another angle; in a much larger sense and on a greater scale the world is in a state of change like nothing I've ever seen. Climate change, the internet, i phones, politics, world politics, the rise of fundamentalism among almost all religions, etc. I just heard an interview on NPR in which the guest was talking about how petroleum is in almost everything, how the price of food is going up, how a bad hop harvest and the fact that many farmers are no longer growing hops (or wheat) so they can grow biofuels (which will raise the price of beer and probably force some breweries out of business). I know I quit getting in the car and going on 'expeditions' a long time ago due to high gas prices. Dealer friends tell me booth rents are so high and the cost of gas to drive to a show is double what it was for them several years ago and fewer people show up to buy. I've seen more retired people and housewives out buying things (another Roadshow effect?) (and few of them know what they are doing) to put on ebay etc., so there is more competition for fewer items (as mentioned in the 2002 post, estate sales are way off in this area; the era in which people stayed in a house for 20-40 years and had accumulated a lot of stuff seems to be over). I could go on, but the point is things really are changing and I doubt anyone can say where they are going, but they can never go back to the way they were. And then there is globalization of the economy and the sub prime housing and credit card debt crises. [This message has been edited by vathek (edited 01-21-2008).] IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 01-23-2008 07:55 AM
Before I take my daughter to school... The trend I see, from a curatorial point of view, is that some styles of silver--such as the 1830-50 late neoclassical, and the entire rococo revival of the 1850-60 years, have advanced in absolute value in the market very little over the past 27 years. Certain key objects will surface that cause a scuffle among collectors and raise prices at auction, but I still see late Empire and rococo revival silver as the two "dead" periods--and hence the areas in which someone who really loves silver can find tremendous bargains. As a curator I've bought quite a few important objects for my museum in this area at relatively low prices. The value of a Tiffany & Co. rococo revival tea set of the 1850s has been flat for nearly 30 years. Likewise, a four-piece 1820s teaset (with a couple of exceptions as to maker). In spite of what curators might wish, it is private collectors, not museums, who drive the market for everything. There is, I think, "Roadshow Effect," in that everyone in America seems to like the idea of collection (if only to cash in on a hidden treasure). IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 01-23-2008 09:44 PM
Ulysses, why do you think late classical and rococo revival are dead now? My first reaction was to think, Well, of course rococo revival is dead--we're in a moment that values clean, simple lines. But if that were the explanation, then classical would be hot, which it isn't. IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 01-23-2008 10:11 PM
Neoclassical is anything but simple clean lines...Federal stuff is maybe, but you look at most of what American silversmiths produced in the 1820s and 30s and it's big, bold, and lobed and ripe with milled bands and finials...and most of it has never been hot in the market--at least not in my lifetime (well, I confess I wasn't really paying attention before I was fifteen...). Even the "hot" names like Fletcher and Gardiner, or Chaudron & Rasch, don't bring the kind of money that Japanism or art nouveau designs do. I'm not saying no one wants it, I'm just saying the "big" collectors aren't fighting over it, and thus the market has remained steady (which is a nice way of saying dead) for decades. It doesn't mean no one wants it or buys it, it just hasn't followed the same trajectory that so much 19th-century material has. Come to think of it, even federal silver (meaning 1790-1810) is relatively inexpensive, but that is partly because it is the first period of American silver where things are plentiful. You all realize I'm talking curator's perspective here when I say "inexpensive." As a normal human I can't afford any of this, other than the occasional 1820s spoon. IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 01-23-2008 11:43 PM
Okay, not as simple as modernism maybe, but pretty simple compared to rococo, yes? Or compared to art nouveau, for that matter. Was there a time when everybody hated Japanism & art nouveau and wanted classicism and rococo? Will the pendulum swing back that way? Or is there something fundamentally more wonderful about the styles that are popular now? Is it a question of museums being interested in the later periods for reasons that have to do with history rather than aesthetics? IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 01-24-2008 04:46 AM
View from England The emphasis on style in the last few postings has omitted the factor of "current usage" . In England "tea services" - the traditional sets of teapot, sugar bowl, hot water pot etc are virtually unsaleable except for scrap unless really collectable - ie. pre 1830 or by a very good maker. The modern household no longer uses them, nor can be bothered to clean them. Hence mid Victorian sets , very desirable twenty - thirty years ago are unsaleable. Whereas good collectable silve, only appreciated by the fanatics like myself, and probably most of the readership has still held up . Even the 18th century classic items, coffee pots and candlesticks have not even kept up with inflation unless very good. The really choice items still do well, the middling are okay, but the real run of the mill items are being scrapped. IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 01-24-2008 10:16 AM
A rather nice ca. 1850 unsigned coin pitcher that looks rococo and had an full eagle decoration on the handle just sold for what seems to be a fairly healthy online auction price. Perhaps the eagle added to the unusualness of the item. I'm sure anyone on this forum would like to own this. [This message has been edited by vathek (edited 01-24-2008).] IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 01-27-2008 03:40 PM
Ulysses Dietz’s observation of the year 1790 as the cutoff date for “big” collectors is interesting. 1790 roughly coincides with the date mentioned by J. H. Buck in his book “Old Plate Ecclesiastical, Decorative and Domestic: Its Makers and Marks” published in 1888 by the Gorham Manufacturing Company. Mr. Buck observed that “as a general rule, plate made after 1784 is poor in quality and unworthy of the notice of a true collector.” It is not clear from his remarks how he picked the year 1784 as he did not provide any further analysis. 1784 was the year that a duty was imposed on silver objects in England and perhaps he felt that this tax repressed the creative ability of silversmiths in England and somehow this malady spread throughout the world. Apparently 120 years after Mr. Buck’s comment, the cutoff date for serious collectors as remained the same. In the small segment of the silver market that I am most interested in buying (American from 1800 to 1860) I really do not see any trends. The market, for the most part, seems to me to be very thin and perhaps that explains why prices have, at best, remained stable. Within this segment we normally buy something that we can use and low stable prices for the consumer are good. Serving tea in an 1820 tea set is fun – a mint julep in a coin silver beaker is exciting, particularly when served it on a coin silver salver – punches of various kinds somehow seem more enjoyable if served with an antique ladle from an antique bowl –the list really goes on and on. The low, stable prices of this time period are just a plus in my view. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-27-2008 04:59 PM
As I see it, the last couple of decades of the 18th Century saw the replacement of the heavier colonial/Rococo styles with the lighter Neoclassical; this coincided with the introduction of rolled silver, the use of which resulted in lighter, plainer silver that involved less intensive hand work. This may be related to the preference of older collectors for the earlier pieces, but as they become increasingly scarce and expensive, the Federal styles may increase in popularity, especially with a later generation of collectors for whom they are more available and affordable. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 01-27-2008).] IP: Logged |
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