posted 11-14-2010 12:32 PM            

The giddiness of the melt

We thought we might be seeing a turn around in the silver market until we realized most of the silver sellers were happy because they knew they were going to make money whether things sold at the show or not.

Nearly every silver seller had large boxes stuff under their tables that was going to melt on Monday. A few sellers still had things out for sale but if it didn’t sell this weekend, then on Monday it would be in the box and on its way to melt.

Attempting to speak with the sellers about why undamaged items should NOT go to melt was like looking into the eyes of someone high on drugs.

One seller showed me a group of Gorham OLD BARONIAL (1898) spoons in excellent condition, which, at the last Pier Show, he couldn’t sell at $200 and now at melt were worth more than $370 dollars. He is selling them this weekend for melt $ and if they don’t sell at the show, then on Monday they go to melt.

Examples like the above were everywhere.

Yes, we think sellers should raise their pricing of items so things are priced higher than melt $. This way the items are protected from professional scrappers.

It almost seemed like mass hysteria, as the silver sellers were all too giddy about taking large portions of their inventory to melt on Monday. Not one seller was interested in putting entry level items, like Gorham OLD BARONIAL (1898) spoons away. Not one seller was interested in saving something for a time when people are prepared to spend again.

The turn out at the show was larger then it has been in a long time. Clearly buyers were there but they were being careful and studious. When the new studious buyer is ready, there needs to be entry level merchandise for them to buy.

The dealers were hanging on to the big expensive high end stuff. So the sellers were no longer well rounded sellers but rather were all becoming high end sellers. None seemed to care about helping to create or grow (seed) the emerging collector market.

Dealers are permanently disposing of the market’s entry level merchandise... If this continues, then things only look good for the elitists sellers/buyers.

We remember when we first came to the market. Our cost threshold was low because we didn’t know what we were doing and were still developing our tastes. Over the years our tastes matured and our threshold rose in tandem. But if there had been no entry level training ground for us, we wouldn’t be where we are today.

We understand that this is a business and money needs to be made. But at what cost do you sacrifice long term market health for short term gains?

posted 11-14-2010 09:48 PM            

Just to play further devils advocate maybe all the "good" things going in the melt pot will help this soft antique silver market when things turn around. By turn around I mean make people appreciate the truly wonderful work in great silver because I think most of it is so under valued. For instance if you could have it made today it would be 3-10 times the price of the one for sale in an antique shop.

Also when you think that silver had very little competition back one hundred years ago and there were hundreds of silversmiths making mountains of the stuff there is a lot out there. Historically it has been melted in times of strife so a little more melting probably won't put to much of a dent in the pile?

posted 11-15-2010 12:27 AM            

But again, silver has always been recycled. Fashion changed and silver was melted and lived again as a new item. Today, the silver will be reused in any other industry.
But basically - it has been done all through history. I Denmark we have historical history that pieces that today are antiques - originally they were made of antiques.
And to be direct, what is melted today is machine made items only around 100 years perhaps 150 years old. So who cares? these items exists in so many versions. I will not miss them.

A dealer I know remove the marks and save them. Melts the rest.

This weekend I bought this recycled item. 10 buttons made into a belt when silver buttons became out of fashion.

And 5 that survived because the belt only needed 10 buttons.

A problem? don't think who uses silver buttons today?

posted 11-15-2010 08:28 AM            

Most people try to sell at prices higher than scrap value.

Your continental spoons has a weight of 40 gram to approx 100 grams average most likely around 50 grams.

Scrap value contra second hand value determines if they go the scrap way or the collectors way. In my opinion you should be able to make more that DKK 75 to DKK100/piece but I could be wrong.

Scott has a point.

posted 11-16-2010 08:07 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott Martin:
Because the form (even damaged) night prove very helpful in your future research.

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posted 12-06-2010 04:42 PM            

Yes, silver has been high ($27.60 on Nov 11), when this post started, and is now higher ($30. on Dec 6). Consumer confidence around the world is very low, hence the rush away from paper and toward the precious metals.

As it applies to many of the silver dealers I know, they never thought that silver would do this again in our lifetimes, but after 30 years it has. It has given us a chance to clean out our stock of dead, under appreciated merchandise, and mistakes, we have made. Scott, the smile you saw on many silver dealers faces, was the look of relief. It meant that bills could be paid.

I see the business as part of who I am and what I do, to save the good stuff, and keep a reasonable stock of lower end merchandise. For years I have done this. I love the figural patterns, including the "Old Baronial" (cat on the end) pattern by Gorham. However, when after 9 years I sold only the fish knives and forks, and was left with the teaspoons, desert spoons, lunch forks, and butter knives, that few looked at and no one wanted, I figured that with silver going up, it was time to "send them to the farm".

Like my friends, I invest the money in more of the 'crap'( both low and high end) that sells, and the stuff I find in other dealers scrap bins. Also, I see large part of my responsibility is to educate you, my potential customer.

The silver dealers like to eat well and need to pay for their homes, and educate their children..Oh, and pay for health care and insurance, and road or shop expenses, and reference books... We just happen to make our money in a different way than you do. So if you want to save the trees, oops sorry, the undamaged silver, buy it.

And, you, the collectors, and users of silver, determine what our inventory is. Actually purchasing an item, any price, goes a long way toward guiding us. Talking to us helps, but spending a little money gets our attention. And puts you on our mailing list.

I saw a sign in a booth once: It read,
"This Ain't no Museum".

Thanks to Scott for SMP and all the participants in the forums.

Marc

posted 12-12-2010 11:35 AM            

1. definitely keep (items 1700 until 1850)
   
2. new items of interest. Observation list
   
3. definitely scrap - spoons 1850 onwards, cups 1900 onwards.

By the way, I have some 50 candles from baroc. They are in brass lets say 1720 until 1800. My son age 24 - when I said should you not know what this is. He said I put it all op for sale .... price 400DKK each. Those that are sold are to cheap - those remaining are to expensive. I put them up for sale 300DKK piece.....continues...Then I will end up with all gone.

Daughter age 29 once said Father please remember to mark everything worth anything ..... for the day that we have to clean up after you....

My treasures will one day be sold at the same spot-price as I originally paid

And that is not so bad....
but could consider selling a few kilo -- wife might fancy an extra cruise this year..

posted 12-15-2010 12:43 AM            

I think that you are being rather harsh on your collection. Sorting and keeping, by dates, is fine, but a better sorting would be by:

1. quality
2. rarity
a. piece
b. maker

Enjoy your cruise!

Marc

posted 12-15-2010 03:15 PM            

Indeed you are absolutely right. Pure age is not a criteria.

But observe I wrote spoons after 1850. By that date I have separated the handmade ones from the machine made.

I would not include Georg Jensen as his items have a higher price as things that can be used.

I also have some bowls, and casters etc... that I would not scrap. But a lot of good things have now reached a scrap value higher the commercial value.

A Swedish auction ended at 1.050 SEK, that is approx 105Euro + expenses in total 1.335 SEK corresponding to 133Euro.

The auction was of 272gram silver. 830 silver and it was 5 fully marked Copenhagen spoons from 1776. Fine quality at 26euro piece - that is quaizyyyy

And by the way - seller received 750 SEK or 75Euro that is 28 cent per gram - less than scrap price.