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Author Topic:   More spoon mysteries from my weekend haul
Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 03-20-2012 10:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[01-3012]

My questions about all of these are: When, where, who?

#1: Adorable little teaspoon, 4 1/4 inches, Old English (? that's what it's called, right?), mark too worn for me to read, block-style E monogram, drop and bow or maybe bouquet swage on back of bowl.

Can anyone read what's left of the mark? Guess the approximate date? Country of origin?

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 03-20-2012 10:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Spoon #2:

Teaspoon 5 inches long, mark too worn to read, block monogram B over AM, plain drop. A pleasing, well balanced spoon.

Oops, I forgot to take a picture of the whole back.

Does it look American? Approximate age?

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 03-20-2012 10:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
#3: Bright-cut teaspoon, 5 1/8 inches, no mark, pointy bowl and end, monogram RB in block letters (so I should probably send it to agleopar, shouldn't I???), wonderful fluffy plume swage.

C. 1790s, right? Older? American? Any chance anyone recognizes that swage?

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agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 03-20-2012 11:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Polly, those are the best, I love the proportions of #2. My guess is that one is American - only from the style and mono.
#1 looks to be English because I think the right mark is the leopards head.
#3 looks American and might be 1770-80's?

All the guesses above are just by feel and not fact... I really do not know what I am doing and will bow to the real experts, who I hope will set me straight.

P.S. Thanks for the thought on the RB but that is a lovely and I think rare spoon and I have it's plainer bright cut cousin with RB already - my first spoon 10 or so years ago.

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 03-21-2012 01:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow, Rob, I think you may be right about that leopard's head. Impressive pattern recognition there!

Next time I'm up your way or you're down my way, that little spoon will have to join its cousin.

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 03-21-2012 02:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll gladly change my initials, if that helps. . .

The swage is called a foliate scroll, but I don't think anyone has ever done a real survey of the variations. Lovely spoon.

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 03-21-2012 02:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What a nice little collection to have assembled so quickly, and what fun! A few comments from across the pond.

I would think #1 is American. English fancy backs are generally found on Hanoverian spoons rather than the later Old English. I can’t decipher the marks but prior to 1780s an English teaspoon might have just two marks low on the stem: maker’s and lion passant (not leopard’s head). I can’t read either mark as a lion passant. From 1784 English teaspoons would be top-marked with a fuller set of marks including the duty head. The decoration on the bowl looks to me as if it might actually be a shell with some added twirly flourishes. I hesitate to try and guess a date with only a limited knowledge of how and when American fashions changed.

I’d go along with Agleopar as far as #2 is concerned and also with regard to the American look of #3. However I would think #3 is a bit later than he suggests. In England bright cutting was fashionable in the 1790s and early 1800s and I wouldn’t normally expect to see it earlier than this on American silver. Incidentally, the jargon here would term this one a scroll back.

So after all, as far as I can see, you didn’t need to let your probably continental Dognose (aka Wavy End) spoon make you post this little group away from early American. I hope somebody doesn’t now tell me I am wrong about one or more of the spoons!

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 03-21-2012 03:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, believe me, wev, if I ever find a spoon with your initials on it, I will send it to you at once no matter what--even if it was made by Paul Revere, descended in the family of George Washington with impeccable documentation, and was sold to me as silverplate for 25 cents (which is the only way I would ever get my hands on such a spoon in the first place).

agphile, thank you for your thoughts and info. I think the man I bought most of these spoons from must have bought the estate of a collector with a great eye. He told me he specializes in estates and often doesn't look at the stuff carefully until the moment he sells it.

Saturday I bought two pairs of tea tongs and four spoons from him (the three spoons shown here, along with an unmarked bright-cut teaspoon similar to the one with the foliate scroll, which happened to have my best friend's initials). He gave me such a great price that I went back the next day and bought the Samuel Minott, the bird-back David Hall, the Peter Field Jr. coffin-end, and a couple of English sugar bows. Now I'm regretting passing up a set of six very pretty coffin end spoons that he had--if they were from the same estate, I bet they were good ones.

(The Mattias Haverstick and the probably European dog nose were from someone else.)

Here's a close-up of the back of spoon #1. Do you still think it's a shell?

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 03-21-2012 03:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, probably not a shell after all. I cannot better your original description.

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 03-21-2012 05:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looks like a variation on the classic webbed shell

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ellabee

Posts: 306
Registered: Dec 2007

iconnumber posted 03-23-2012 09:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ellabee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Polly's fancy-backed design looks leafier than a shell -- more like an interlocking set of scrolls. It reminds me of the drop on the (much later) variant of the Josephine/'Leaf' pattern by James Watts.

Will post a pic when I locate and upload it.

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 03-24-2012 12:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, Ellabee--I'd love to see it.

I do see what looks like webbing on my spoon.

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ellabee

Posts: 306
Registered: Dec 2007

iconnumber posted 03-25-2012 08:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ellabee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I see the webbing now, myself...

It's a family ancestor to the Watts drop, of a sort...

But the longer I compare it to the stylized shell, the more resemblances I see. Experienced eyes are the most discerning.

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 03-25-2012 08:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There were numerous variations of the basic form in the day. A few swages are known to have gone from one shop to another, but most spent their lives with their first maker.

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ellabee

Posts: 306
Registered: Dec 2007

iconnumber posted 03-26-2012 04:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ellabee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Has there been an article anywhere surveying swages, or particular subsets of them (birds, sheaves of wheat, baskets of flowers, shell, ...?) The swage staying with its maker would seem to encourage documentation of the different versions of similar motifs.

I'd love to see an image-heavy exploration.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 03-27-2012 06:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The “saved search” on eBay can be a useful tool for collecting copies of the various swages that were used through the years. You have to be imaginative in using your search terms as many sellers are their own lexicographer in describing the pictures imprinted on the flatware.

One small pamphlet on bird back spoons is “Flights of Fancy American Silver Bird-Decorated Spoons” by Donald L. Fennimore. Additionally there is an interesting article in the March-April 1989 issue of Silver Magazine by John McGrew entitled “Basket of Flowers: A Preliminary Study”. Both of these publications are “image heavy” and are interesting to read. I think the Flights of Fancy is available from used book stores and the Silver Magazine article may still be available from the Silver magazine folks.

Polly you hit a real treasure trove – good for you.

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swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 03-27-2012 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
John Luddington in his Starting to Collect Silver names 28 different English picture backs and the frequency in which they are found, although he illustrates only a handful. A few of these have appeared on American spoons.

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ellabee

Posts: 306
Registered: Dec 2007

iconnumber posted 05-07-2012 11:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ellabee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, ahwt and swarter for those references. Have been wanting to get a few Silver Magazine back issues, and the Basket of Flowers article is just the kind of thing I was thinking of.

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 01-25-2014 10:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nice spoons!

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 01-26-2014 07:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, Asheland!

I did end up giving Rob that one with his initials on it, though he fought me tooth and nail. He said, "You're going to regret giving away such a good spoon." Rob, you were wrong wrong WRONG. it makes me happy every time I think of it living with someone who really understands it.

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agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 01-26-2014 10:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Polly it still sits in a cup beside the stove and stirs the tea and coffee. It is a lovely little spoon and is loved by Mrs. Wife as well!

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 01-27-2014 09:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
:-)

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