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| Author | Topic: Tong question |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 03-27-2012 01:38 PM
  
[01-3013] Here is another pair of tongs from my Wild Spoon and Tong Weekend. I bought this pair from a dealer who believed, based on the size and shape, that they were made in the Philadelphia area around 1780-85. They are unmarked, and I know zilch about Philadelphia sugar tongs--I bought them because I think they're beautiful, and they're in amazing shape for old cast sugar tongs. Does anyone have an opinion about what country they're from? Age? They are pretty big, 6 inches long, 2 1/4 inches wide at the widest point, and 1 1/4 inches deep across the bow (if you know what I mean). They have a sort of balloony, pantaloony feel because of the large, arched bow. IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 03-27-2012 01:43 PM
I don't know much about cast sugar tongs--this is my first pair--but I found the construction interesting. It looks like the arms had a notch cut in them where the bow was inserted: I don't know if this is the usual way of constructing cast tongs, but looking at photos of others it appears that they pieces are just soldered together without the insertion. Does anyone know? IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 03-27-2012 03:20 PM
Well, I haven't seen a pair joined like this before for what that is worth. I imagine you have checked out the silversugartongs and castsugartongs websites to which Shlossy has links on his site. The illustrations don't focus on the joins, but a simple straight join seems the norm. English cast tongs are often marked across the joins, the marks thus validating all the distinct parts. This wouldn't have worked with the bump created by the join on your tongs and I imagine your join could be a bit stronger - American inventiveness perhaps? IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 03-27-2012 03:47 PM
Thanks, agphile. Yes, I did look at those sites and didn't see anything that looked quite like this. The ends are more fanlike--most of the ends shown on those websites look more like shells--and the bow is bigger and more balloony on mine. IP: Logged |
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doc Posts: 728 |
posted 03-27-2012 05:00 PM
I do think this is a bit of ingenuity; I have had several pairs of similar tongs without such reinforcement, and they are almost always damaged and resoldered at that joint. Interesting find Polly; I will look in my books when I have a moment to see if there is something similar shown in one of them. IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 03-27-2012 06:47 PM
I have seen a number of cast tongs but never one with this type joint. As a rule cast tongs are joined by what is called a SCARF joint. I believe I posted a pencil drawing of a scarf joint so I will do a search and let you know if it is still here. Click here: Pierced Tongs on 7-11-2007 under American Silver Before Sterling. IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 03-27-2012 09:31 PM
Argentum, that thread is very interesting! First, for the clear description and drawing of the scarf joint. But also because that first pair of tongs, the one said to be possibly from Philadelphia, with the dove and the SW mark, feel to me like mine. The width of the bow, and the delicate piercing on the arms, and even the sprigged engraving. So maybe mine is from around Philadelphia after all? IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 03-27-2012 10:20 PM
Your cast tongs are very attractive and the tongue and groove construction should form a strong joint. Perhaps our silversmith’s contributors could comment on this method and whether it was used in other applications. The tongs marked SW in the other thread do have a light and airy character. I was fascinated with the hearts and doves and thought that they may have been made by an American silversmith. I was later told that Samuel Walsh of Ireland was most likely the silversmith that made them. After learning that they might be Irish I brought more than a few books on Irish silver and have enjoyed seeing some of their wonderful silver creations. IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 03-27-2012 10:42 PM
I wonder why this method of joining sugar tongs never caught on. Maybe because they invented a better way to make tongs--the one-piece method? Or maybe it's difficult to do? IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 03-28-2012 10:50 AM
I am no expert on sugar tongs, but saying 1780-1785 Philadelphia seems to be somewhat hopeful. Without any markings or unique features known to a specific smith at a specific point in time my thought is these could be new world, old world or European colonies in the middle east or Asia copying Euopean styles from between that 1750 to 1850 give or take. Whatever they are, they are very nice looking and old tongs and appear to be well made. IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 03-28-2012 11:18 AM
Thank you, Kimo. If I ever get offered I superpower, I will choose being able to point to any object and know its entire history. Who am I kidding? No, I won't--I will choose flying and invisibility! IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 03-28-2012 02:47 PM
An invisibility cloak may be on the horizon – at least one that fools infrared sensors. Michio Kaku in his book "Physic of the Impossible" discusses invisibility in the context of whether it would violate any known laws of physics and finds that it would not. He projects general invisibility methods within the next century. Also teleportation, which I guess it a form of flying, in his view does not violate any known laws of physics; however he hedges on any projection as to when it might be possible. Learning the history of an object would involve some time traveling. Here again Dr. Kaku does not see an law of physics that would bar this; however his lead quote for this chapter is the following by Stephen Hawking – "If time travel is possible, then where are the tourists from the future". IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 03-28-2012 03:50 PM
Well, I expect they have better places to go. They're busy watching the premier of Hamlet or hunting mammoths. Or perhaps the human race destroys itself soon after inventing a working time machine. Or perhaps humans never develop one, and the extraterrestrials who do aren't especially interested in us--they're busy with their own version of Hamlet and mammoths. If you had a time machine, what piece of silver would you go back to get? Believe it or not, I'm supposed to be writing a time travel novel RIGHT NOW. Enough procrastinating, Polly! Back to work. IP: Logged |
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adelapt Posts: 418 |
posted 03-28-2012 04:14 PM
AHA! I've got it... the tourists from the future are wearing their invisibility cloaks. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 03-29-2012 04:30 PM
quote: I think the way to get this superpower is to take up being an antiques dealer and it will come with the job. At least that is what I keep seeing when I go antiquing - dealers who seem to make the most definitive statements about some of their wares based on no evidence, and then using that to justify their prices. IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 03-29-2012 10:19 PM
Kimo Amen IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 03-29-2012 11:35 PM
I am a big fan of the ones that pick and choose the facts, identities, etc that suit them best from references and web sites (like, say, mine) and then advertise or otherwise publish these 'facts' as true. I can only be thankful that citing sources seems to be an unknown to most of them, though I still get emails. . . [This message has been edited by wev (edited 03-29-2012).] IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 03-30-2012 12:01 PM
I used to laugh at some of their absurdities, but it isn't funny anymore. Shading the truth about antique items is either outright dishonesty or wishful thinking based on ignorance, but it is getting worse day by day on ebay as prices rise. Whichever it is, it is caveat emptor for buyers. Judging from the anonymous bidders buying records, some of the highest prices paid are not by specialty collectors, but to general antique dealers, so I can only think that their gullibility only feeds the problem. IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 03-31-2012 01:06 PM
I had a couple of novelists over for tea the other day, and one of them told us about a friend who made up sentimental stories to sell objects in online auctions, lies about the former owners: "This was the only thing rescued from my aunt's house when it burned down," that kind of thing. We were shocked. (We used the early Gawen Nash tongs and the Gorham dodo-foot tea set. I know you were wondering.) IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 03-31-2012 01:58 PM
I would like to put is a good word for the dealers that set up at antique shows. They truck the stuff in, set it up in a thoughtful manner, listen to who knows what from customers that want the antiques for a pittance and then load everything up and go to the next show. Most of the dealers I know are interesting people and knowledgeable about their wares. When I run into one that does not have these characteristics I do wonder how they make their living selling antiques. That said, it is also obvious that even good dealers sometimes puff up their wares and knowledge so it is always buyer beware. I really enjoy the antiques that I buy at directly from the dealer more than the items purchased off internet auctions. I am sure that there are good dealers on the internet auctions, but years later I like to remember the place we brought the item and who we brought it from and what we talked about. Internet sales have none of these added remembrances. IP: Logged |
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Richard Kurtzman Moderator Posts: 768 |
posted 03-31-2012 08:50 PM
Didn't Shakespeare say, "Kill all the antiques dealers." Or maybe it was "Kill all the plumbers." Yeah, I think that was it, because we all know what those plumbers are like. And where's a cop when you need em. [This message has been edited by Richard Kurtzman (edited 04-01-2012).] IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 04-05-2012 10:42 PM
Late to this post but the construction is not that difficult but is sensible because the cast part is weak and the spring is made from rolled sheet which is much more durable. I too have come to respect the respectable dealers both for their knowledge, hard work and fair pricing. After knowing some for years they impress me with their love of silver and dedication to furthering the knowledge. Amazingly there seems to be one or two lurking on this site too...! IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 04-11-2012 05:34 PM
Way past the date on this one - but two things in the thread interested me. Philadelphia certainly did produce tongs like this in the late 1700s...although I'd have to look at Newark's collection to remember exactly which those are. Secondly, I recently finished the third draft of a novel - and in it one of the main characters has exactly the power you've all mentioned - the ability to see an object's entire history by holding it. Of course, in my book, he's a curator. IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 04-12-2012 10:34 AM
Very cool, Ulysses! I can't wait to read it--I hope you'll let us know when it's available to the public. IP: Logged |
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