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 Please help with date on poss Ottoman dynasty gilt Turkish silver niello belt
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| Author | Topic: Please help with date on poss Ottoman dynasty gilt Turkish silver niello belt |
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StaceyMarie Posts: 9 |
posted 09-25-2010 08:59 PM
  
[26-2048 01-3028] My guess is late 19th century. What do you think? Am I right in thinking this is Turkish? It tests about 833 silver. thx everyone. It's working! thx for the help! IP: Logged |
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StaceyMarie Posts: 9 |
posted 09-25-2010 09:00 PM
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 09-25-2010 10:38 PM
In Aug 2009, you posted doing business research  . See: Identification help please???Is this business research again? IP: Logged |
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StaceyMarie Posts: 9 |
posted 09-25-2010 11:22 PM
Sorry, didn't know that wasn't allowed. Not sure why I'm getting the frown icon from you though. Keep in mind that ALL the stuff you added to your collection through purchases via the internet, at auctions, OR at antique malls had to be researched somehow. If we "dealers" didn't have good resources for research, then YOU buyers wouldn't have nearly as many cool items to add to your collection. Key words would be off, dates would be wrong, you know what I mean. I'm sure there are a lot of dealers that are posting on here under the secrecy of being collectors just to get your help, but I guess my honesty is not something that is not appreciated. I get it, you're not interesting in helping. No problem, I will just delete my account and no longer post on here again. Thank you for your hospitality. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 09-26-2010 12:13 AM
I'm sorry, but to hijack this thread, does anyone actually buy based on what a dealer has to say? In any venue? The poster here is foolish, of course, and I apologize to the forum for my haste in assisting her, but the question is interesting. I do not collect, research being the only diversion within my means, but in my travels, I have heard some outlandish things from dealers of very high national standing. How are we to bridge this gray area? IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 09-26-2010 08:21 AM
I would say that some information is of general interest and may truly shed light on areas of collecting, as my query about the gold snuffbox 18k mark being something the French would have used at that time. Is information excluding any valuation of a piece still not of potential value to all? IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 09-26-2010 04:44 PM
An issue we need to consider is the role of the dealer in maintaining a market for antique silver. Virtually everything I know about silver was taught to me by a dealer. Dealers nudged me to study, to learn by example. They recommended books and articles. They showed me the path to understanding a little bit about silver. Usually, at most shows, I was the youngest dealer. Even into my 50's, all the others were much older than me. It seemed to be that one requirement for being a dealer was to have actually voted for Herbert Hoover. This was one of the major problems facing the antique industry: there were no young dealers. You can not be a silver dealer all by yourself alone. You need an environment where there are many dealers who feed silver into the system so that silver dealers can buy it and apply expertise. And make some money. Which brings us to Stacey Marie's fascinating belt. I know she will use what we can tell her to make money. But then for many years I did the same, and have no regrets about doing so. Part of me wants to say that using our efforts for commercial purposes is not why we are here. But another part of me wants very much to be part of the long term training that builds a dealers knowledge. Plus this is a really cool item that I would like to know more about. My feeling is that without dealers there are no collectors, just scavengers. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 09-26-2010 05:29 PM
The subject is not an easy one. And it has been reviewed time and again. There is only one way to address this and that is for the dealer to learn for next time by posting after the sale. The way it would work is for the dealer to prepare a post of the interesting item but not to post until after the item has been sold. We have repetitively made this suggestion to dealers. Most (not all) are not interested in learning without a direct and immediate profit motive. I believe the way things are now is the best way for this to continue. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 09-26-2010 05:40 PM
The other alternative is for dealers to rent one of our private Silver Caucus Rooms to discuss in private what they have. Most dealers have no interest in doing this since it costs them $. Since the discussion is in a private Silver Caucus Room then what is discussed/shared is not going to run up against the SSF Guidelines. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 09-26-2010 06:58 PM
And I would likely offer my help if asked to participate. But ask them to pay and the rooms will stay empty. On my own pages, I just assume the mining -- given the lifts I spot on ebay, I'm surprised my hit counter hasn't turned a 100k yet. I used to go to shows quite a bit, trying to see/learn things. I seldom met a dealer who wanted to know anything more than was needed to make the next sale. Questions were generally met either a blank stare, a bolt of whole cloth, or a quote (almost always wrong) from the gospel according to Kovel. On more than one occasion, it was suggested (often in rather strong terms) that I should go bother someone else; they were busy professionals with years of experience and mouths to feed. I soon tired of the exercise and quit going. As for shops, when it became apparent that my budget was meager at best, I was simply and uniformly ignored. Well, time is money, I suppose, but just last week one of them emailed via my site seeking an identification -- for free, of course. IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 12-06-2010 03:46 AM
Nice to see the belt from turkey? Can you tell me which size it has? Why you may think, but the size can explain for instance which age (the woman) should be, for wearing this one perhaps for a marriage ceremony. The Minang Kabau (Chinese population who settled in Indonesian)at wedding, the bride were very young (girls from the age around 12 years were no exception). I own two wedding belts from the population from the Minang Kabau(Indonesian)and found a lot of information in head library, internet etc. One of the belts is with symbolic figures. Most figures of animals. When I look at your belt I see a few panels with a assortment of key-holes (Symbolic?),a panel with figure of a locomotive and one with a city and other decoration's of course. I found it a interesting belt with a lot of ?????? About my first belt I got also information from Michael Backman from London an expert of Asian Art perhaps you can try it also!!!! Success and if you get specific information let us know, greetings Silverhunter. IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 12-06-2010 12:56 PM
Hi Silverhunter,
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 12-08-2010 01:39 PM
I wonder if it is a wedding belt? The few grey cells are freezing at this side, who is Mr.Ottoman? I just watch the show, greetings to you Hose-DK, and thanks for your reaction!!! I don't understand the message I'm sorry. I will read the topics more serious and a light will shine. IP: Logged |
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Postnikov Posts: 133 |
posted 12-08-2010 05:28 PM
Hi silverhunter - On this forum it is not appropriate (not suitable) to ask as dealer (silver seller) what this or that silver object is. If Scott Martin intervene (goes between forum and seller) it is better to stay back and give no answer to the query (question)! So next time please wait until the smoke has vanished... Kind regards and please show some new silver/silverplate Postnikov IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 12-09-2010 05:34 PM
Silverhunter, Ottoman refers to the Ottoman Empire that lasted 700 years from 1299 until 1923 and at its peak it was enormous and included Southeastern Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. At its end it was reduced to what is now known as the country of Turkey. You can look it up on the internet to learn more. IP: Logged |
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Marc Posts: 414 |
posted 12-10-2010 08:58 PM
Hi there all... I read the first 5 postings on this subject and I am appalled. Holy crap... is this how you would like to be treated? What if I or WEV or Dale or Brent asked the same question that Stacy did. Would we be treated the same way she was? Has this become an elitist organization? Do we not exist to educate? Specially the clueless ones. They can be our best acolytes. Marc IP: Logged |
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Marc Posts: 414 |
posted 12-10-2010 09:23 PM
Hi William, I know of 4 dealers, at least who treasure knowledge on this site, and we are all eager to share and also learn. It is part of our Community. But there are silver dealers who do this because the live and breathe silver, and dealers who do it for the money, and because it is easy. Now, I know that you are a specialist, and I treasure your expertise, and will send better marks your way, and use your reference material on line. And yes, there are a pile of dealers who do not care. They tend to be specialists too. 'Pattern matchers', who if they get a piece of coin flatware throw it into their scrap bin. You don't find them on a site like this. Dealers are not all Grinches.
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 12-10-2010 10:23 PM
And I do know that -- a full measure of folks from the ether world have very kindly and generously assisted in my dalliances. I was speaking only of my own memories wandering about in the shallow, briny end of the nation's silver pool that I inhabit. In twenty years of west coast shows and shops, I can count on half a single hand those met in the flesh that contradict my experiences stated. But then, I tend to speak bluntly, marshall meager funds, and am somewhat disheveled at the collar, so I may simply be a victim of the book judged by its rather tatty cover. You shoot very good marks, by the bye, and I thank you for them. IP: Logged |
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Marc Posts: 414 |
posted 12-11-2010 04:01 PM
William and other left coast dwellers, Because there is a dearth of coin silver and coin makers west of the Mississippi (compared to the east) and there are a lot fewer dealers out there who care, it means that the majority of silver dealers out that way are not exposed to coin silver and will care less. Here in the east, there are more of us who care about coin, as there is so much more of it to care about. I have attended shows out west and I know what you mean. You mention coin and eyes glaze over. However there is a lot of Mexican and Oriental to make up for it. Marc IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 12-12-2010 04:57 AM
In the debate regarding [auction] sellers obtaining information. Here we have a brilliant example. Top rated [auction] seller with 100% positive feedback opens a new account ask one question. Gets the information - December 1st - December 12th put item on [auction]. The 11 day period have not been enough time to say thank you for the information. But again he had to transfer the information directly to [auction] and that takes time.  Thank you to curleytaildog alias Irontree55 for the perfect example. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 12-12-2010 08:25 AM
Thanks for that example Hose_dk. It is a good one to remember when we are trying to understand why Scott and June have created the rule that new people need to introduce themselves just a bit before jumping in. My feeling is that we should try to give people a warm welcome and err a bit on the side of believing the best of people, but there are so many rude and inconsiderate people on the internet that it is not unreasonable for there to be a small expectation of their being friendly enough to respect the very minimal rules here. IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 12-12-2010 08:50 AM
If I may present a possible conundrum: someone not knowledgeable about silver comes here because they have a piece to sell and it's a good piece, what if they conclude the thing isn't worth selling for its artistic value when scrap is so high and another good piece is lost. I believe we should in these times be more concerned with saving good pieces. Monetary values need not be given but advising that it's a good piece worth saving in a friendly way may save something. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 12-12-2010 10:01 AM
Hose_dk, Your post in this thread on 12-12-2010 04:57 AM is a good example for the current discussion. It is also a problem because it is promoting a current auction and providing enough info for someone to go looking for the auction. This time I am going to let it remain but next time please please wait until after the auction has completed. I captured(& edited) images and put the images in your post...this way when the sites on the internet disappear we still have the example. IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 12-12-2010 11:03 AM
Than you for editing. You are right but when I saw the auction my blood pressure went up in the high ..... I simply got so mad. I know that this takes place and frankly I don't mind helping, but I like to know in advance (then I can decide) and most of all I would be pleased if seller just said a simple thank you. I am not in the marked for this cup. It gained 32 years into an interesting period. A much more interesting and rare period. In case I wanted to buy I just increased the price by ?$ Should that profit benefit the lazy seller or the buyer that gained knowledge via paying to much several times...and now had learned.. As you will see the example is edited at 925-1000 and that is also OK. Next time I shall wait until auction is ended. But as said I was mad.... Also in this case we are not talking scrap or non scrap. Everybody can see this is an OK thing with age......but last quarter 1700 versus first half 1700 makes a world of difference. IP: Logged |
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Postnikov Posts: 133 |
posted 12-12-2010 05:11 PM
Hi Hose_dk - thank you for this complete documentation. That is what happened to me several times - you have to recherche, others profit - and no "Thank you"! That is the dayly experience. Regards IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 12-27-2010 01:17 PM
At one day I gave a dealer information about a Norwegian silver vase, just from around the 1930's. I believe it was made by M. Aasen, the dealer wrote my name under the new placed information which he good use. I'm still proud from that moment and have to stay with my feet on the ground. I missed this topic for a while but have found it again. All the best!!!!!! IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 12-27-2010 01:35 PM
Kimo, thank you very much for your good information you gave, a lot of interesting information (like always!). Postnikov, I also thank you for your fine reaction. Perhaps you can help more in the future (next year(2011),give it a try!) IP: Logged |
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