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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 American Sterling Silver
 Shiebler marks and dates?
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| Author | Topic: Shiebler marks and dates? |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 05-18-1999 11:08 PM
  
It is my opinion that the following list of Shiebler marks is in date order (old to new). Does anyone have any documentation that supports or contradicts this? I am going to assume that there is no documentation. So maybe we can figure this out another way. Any suggestions or recommendations on a way to tackle this? IP: Logged |
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Bob and Carol Carnighan Posts: 63 |
posted 05-19-1999 10:13 AM
Shiebler occasionally marked a piece indicating that the patent had not yet been granted. It seems to me that this dates the piece to within a year or two of the patent date. In a quick search of a few pieces we found a Napoleon teaspoon marked "patent apl'd for" and Shiebler mark #5. IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 05-19-1999 10:00 PM
Number 3 mark can be dated to 1877 (see my input for Tiffany Persian); this is on forks and spoons in an English King pattern retailed by Tiffany. The number 5 mark appears in the same service, for pieces added to the service in the 1880s or 1890s, without the Tiffany retail mark (because they had started making their own English King). What are the dates you have for these marks? [This message has been edited by Ulysses Dietz (edited 05-19-99).] IP: Logged |
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Cheryl and Richard Posts: 154 |
posted 06-24-1999 03:45 PM
Mark number 5 is seen not infrequently with the S reversed. Rarely on hollowware or place settings, for the most part the pieces with the backward S are Flora demitasse spoons, pocket knives and other 'smalls.' Does anyone know how this happened? Too many pieces have this mark for it to simply be an accident. IP: Logged |
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Barbara unregistered |
posted 09-19-1999 07:19 AM
Have any of you seen mark # 1 on a piece of silver? If so, what pattern was it? (I know that the mark is given in Rainwater, with a comment that the mark was originally that of a silversmith named Platt.) IP: Logged |
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hello Posts: 200 |
posted 03-30-2006 07:52 AM
It just occurred to me that I have only seen mark #6 on holloware. IP: Logged |
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Richard Kurtzman Moderator Posts: 768 |
posted 03-30-2006 09:27 AM
I can't base this on documentation, but from observation I believe that mark 6 is earlier than mark 5. As far as mark 6 being used only on hollowware I am not sure, but somewhere in my addled brain is the memory of having seen it on a piece of flatware. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 03-30-2006 10:13 AM
Richard , We have several items of flatware with a version of the Shiebler mark that looks was if inspired from the #6 mark. This is from the BOS, S0307, Corinthian pattern, cheese scoop: I have only seen Mark #6 on Shiebler ephemera and on Shiebler steel. This is also from the BOS, s0191, Louvre pattern, carving knife: IP: Logged |
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hello Posts: 200 |
posted 03-30-2006 11:39 AM
P.S. it's not like I've seen a ton of shiebler  and certainly not alot of older shieblerIP: Logged |
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Bob and Carol Carnighan Posts: 63 |
posted 03-30-2006 06:43 PM
We have never seen mark #1. IP: Logged |
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hello Posts: 200 |
posted 03-30-2006 07:12 PM
I just seen it on an auction not too long ago(on fiddle thread I think). I will see if I can find it back but don't know. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 03-30-2006 07:52 PM
I know we have something somewhere with #1 mark and it is most likely on holloware.... now to remember... not going to happen anytime soon. I hope someone else can post an example. I won’t hold my breath because if Bob & Carol don’t have it ..... I did remember a different Shiebler mark. This is from grape shears where the handle is sterling and with the #5 mark. The metal (steel/iron?) for the shears is marked Germany and with this mark: IP: Logged |
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Richard Kurtzman Moderator Posts: 768 |
posted 03-30-2006 09:33 PM
This is from my post of a Shiebler sugar beet bowl in the "Most interesting Shiebler objects?" thread. It looks like #6 to me. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 03-30-2006 11:15 PM
Does date order apply to when the die was made or when the silver item was made? This may be an important distinction: older marked pieces may have had the mark integral to the die and been made over a long period of time. Interesting question. Does anyone know where the Shiebler business records are? IP: Logged |
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hello Posts: 200 |
posted 03-30-2006 11:29 PM
Probably lost when gorham bought Shiebler. What would be the most obvious effective way of dating marks is to have dated monograms and marks posted together(as I'm sure most of us realize-not my idea) Funny how something that is generally accepted to be a "negative" thing (dated monograms) are actually very usefull. The book that is being written about shiebler should also help expose the paper trail, many people have simply not heard of them, but once shiebler obtains more exposure, it may get people to realize that items they have (in terms of paper trail) would be usefull. IP: Logged |
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Richard Kurtzman Moderator Posts: 768 |
posted 03-30-2006 11:44 PM
When Textron took over Gorham in the 1960s they threw out container loads of paper material. It is my belief that most of this (if not all) was related to the companies that Gorham took over: Whiting, Durgin etc. Is it possible that Shiebler material was discarded at that time and not earlier? [This message has been edited by Richard Kurtzman (edited 03-30-2006).] IP: Logged |
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Paul Lemieux Posts: 1792 |
posted 04-03-2006 08:00 PM
I always thought #6 came before #5. IP: Logged |
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hello Posts: 200 |
posted 04-05-2006 07:33 AM
I would agree with that. (turns out I was completely out to lunch on #6 being only on holloware-I have seen a bunch of flatware pieces with it recently on a popular auction site.) Especially because it seems that it tends to appear on pieces that are do not fit into shieblers "patterns" in general. I.e. holloware chrysanthemum pieces tend to have #5. That and simply the fact that (I think) it tends to show up much less often. IP: Logged |
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