posted 07-15-2008 07:33 PM            

I would like to learn the *maker* of this sterling set for a young person. It is only slightly smaller than adult utensils, not a 'baby' set. "Dot" of the monogram is Dot Townsend Steere (1873-1887) who died at age 14 of TB, the sister of my great-grandmother. This set has no markings but STERLING. One of the motifs (three leaves) is a bit like one on the Knowles & Ladd coin silver that is pictured elsewhere on this page and which belonged to this girl's mother. I would very much like to know the maker and pattern. The time period might be ca 1878-1880 based on the short life of the owner? I don't know who called this a 'youth set', perhaps my grandmother.

Is that the appropriate term for such?

Thank you.

I just added a better close-up, in hopes someone can identify this. Something I didn't notice until seeing the enlargement: the monogram appears to have periods after the D. and O of 'DOT.' Odd.

Does anyone know of full size silver anything like this ca 1878-80?
Thank you

posted 07-15-2008 07:39 PM            

You asked my interest in silver. I am the family historian and with the recent death of my mother, am now the custodian of *everything.* Realized if I didn't write things down and label them and get the family history into some kind of form (as opposed to website) that all would be lost to future generations.

First step is to inform my children what is 'family' and should be kept, along with the stories behind the items. I have never paid any attention to silver, but to use it, and found I knew nothing about the few pieces that are monogramed and which surely should stay in the family.

I noticed, googling online, that a couple of the maker marks are not well known (or perhaps unimportant?) so I thought silver people might have some interest in seeing them and helping me out with some background.

I am enjoying learning. Hope this tiny collection is of some interest to others who are more knowledgeable.

posted 07-18-2008 01:26 AM            

This mom (of the early Mayflower pattern by Knowles & Ladd) was known to visit Providence, so that makes sense. This pattern is not as nice (to my eye anyway - a novice) as the Knowles & Ladd as it seems less 'sculptural'-- if that makes sense. It is 'flatter' in relief -- those little triangular leaves aren't as 'plump.'

BTW- I don't now see where the preference for email notice of a forum response is located. I was sure I saw it once..

Thank you.
Bonnie

posted 07-18-2008 02:40 AM            

Can you think of a reason why the Youth Set set was **not marked**?

Does it seem odd that this set is unmarked and that the Knowles & Ladd is different from the later 'Mayflower' design when it was re-released under J.B. & S.M. Knowles?

Did silversmiths ever sell 'experimental' designs and not mark them? The set doesn't appear to have any glaring flaws to my novice eye, but I am not sure what would be considered a flaw. Would it be possible to see a photo of the full size "Clinton" pattern to see if it is exactly the same?

Apologies for asking so many darned questions. I guess now that I am *really* looking at the silver, and learning about it, it is getting more and more interesting....

I wonder if Knowles' factory and Richard and A.T. Cross' factory were anywhere near each other in Providence...? Would silversmiths and goldsmiths have belonged to any groups like guilds at that time in Providence?

Would a silversmith sell 'seconds' without a mark at a discount? or, say, to a friend-- if the Cross family knew the Knowles? [If you didn't catch it before in the discussion of the Knowles & Ladd silverware in another of my posts, the uncle of this little girl of the "Clinton" pattern Youth Set was Alonzo Townsend Cross of the A.T.Cross Pen Co, also in Providence at same time.]

posted 07-18-2008 10:18 AM            

Can someone tell me how to activate the email notification when someone responds? Is it possible to get email notification for responses to others' posts that I find particularly interesting?

posted 07-18-2008 10:58 AM            

As best I have been told re Tiffany is that if it says Tiffany & Co. Makers, then Tiffany themselves made it, otherwise if is/was farmed out to someone else.

posted 07-18-2008 07:02 PM            

bascall - thank you for telling me that the dots in the D.O.T monogram are the style of the period.

Ulysses - you said something interesting - about having an English youth set that appears to be used as a traveling set for an adult. I wasn't certain if I was meant to read between the lines here: did that set really belong to that little girl? It did occur to me when I saw the dots in the monogram that, good grief, could there be a relative I knew nothing about with those initials?

Why do I think the set belonged to little Dot T. Steere? My grandmother said so. I know, Kimo --family lore is not always to be believed! There is, yes, some nice silver that has come down from the Steere side of the family. The silver makers working in Providence and the Steere/Cross family connection with Providence , known travel to Providence (Mrs Steere's *only* living sibling lived in Providence, her sister, the wife of Richard Cross, their son A.T. Cross of pen company)-- all reinforce the family tradition that the silver comes from the Steeres.

Mrs. Steere went bankrupt following Mr. Steere's suicide (with strycchnine -?sp-/rat poison- no less!) due to rapidly failing health conditions. I don't know how the Knowles & Ladd silver [see that post for photos] remained in the family, unless the widow was allowed to keep a few useful items. She could not have been gifted the silver after the suicide as Mr Steere took his life in 1886, and the Knowles and Ladd name is said to have changed to J.B. & S. Knowles a decade earlier.

My thought had been --looking at the DOT monogram and thinking (erroneously I now realize) the monogram looked amateurish-- that the monogram could have come not at time of purchase, but later as proof the silver belonged to Mrs. Steere's daughter Dot so as to be exempt from creditors. This is probably faulty thinking: who would be going around monograming silver while under the stress and shock of a husband's suicide, impending bankruptcy and a little girl already ill and dying of TB?

All but one of Mrs Steere's children died of TB, including my GM's mother (who died when my GM was 5) so I am convinced that my grandmother would be strongly impressed by the provenance story ("This silver youth set belonged to your Aunt Dot who died when she was 14"). Moreover, with bascall's observation that dots after letters in a monogram are the period style and don't necessarily denote initials, I think the provenance of the youth set as belonging to Dot Townsend Steere (1873-1887) is pretty good.

Kimo [having elsewhere correctly reminded that a grain of salt is advisable when dealing with family sources} -- rest assured the suicide is factual - all the newspapers were full of it at the time. No one living in the family when I started research knew. My grandmother was not yet born & was shielded from the knowledge of the nature of her grandfather's death until I went snooping around and got copies of the Inquest, etc. Did I create an uproar! Some people are still touchy about such revelations.

Scott, thank you for posting the detail monogram shot. Just curious, do you, by chance, have photos from any other examples of these two patterns -- for comparisons to Mrs. Steere's Knowles & Ladd and to this "Dot" set?

posted 07-18-2008 11:38 PM            

~Cheryl

posted 07-19-2008 02:00 AM            

Cheryl - thanks for that link. A christening gift! I like that theory. Yes, quite possible: Mrs Steere had only one sibling (married to Cross, living in Providence). That Cross family could well have presented this gift to baby Dot Steere --maybe even as god-parents. Great theory.

posted 07-19-2008 03:10 PM            

As long as it says Tiffany & Co., it's good to go. The name is the name of the game. Note: Obviously we are referring to the real, not fake marks.

Re your youth set, there are many that were and are still made as Christening sets. Though many are made in a more youth or adult size to be used later as the child grows. Take a search through the Victoria & Albert Museum site in the UK, and check out the Childrens Museum or Christening sets.

Enjoy!