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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 American Sterling Silver
 Thoughts/Questions Re: Unger Brothers Fakes
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| Author | Topic: Thoughts/Questions Re: Unger Brothers Fakes |
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AKgreengirl Posts: 19 |
posted 09-03-2012 01:09 AM
  
[26-2325] Hi everyone, My name is Grace. I was born and raised in Alaska where I met my husband and we had our first child. We recently moved to Texas for my husband’s change of station (army). Wow what a difference in weather! Even though my silver “lust” is fairly recent, I think it’s seed can be tracked back to when I was a little girl and would visit my grandma with my mom. My grandma ran various antique stores throughout her life and kept herself surrounded with beautiful and wonderful things. She especially had a fondness for Art Nouveau. The anniversary of her death is in September and because of that she has been the subject of my mother and my conversations. I think it was partly due to her being on my mind and maybe even a little bit of a mystical sort of whispering tugging at my brain (even though I don't really believe in that sort of thing) that caused me to take to online auction searching for Art Nouveau stuff. I found a hairbrush, a BEAUTIFUL sterling hairbrush with a woman's sleepy face and swirling hair with big poppies near the top of her head, and I instantly fell in love with it. It reminded me of my grandmother so very much and it was unlike any other figural pattern I had seen. Her face was very detailed and had soft features, not the ugly crass features it seems so many patterns have. I waited and saved and watched and finally bought her. While I was waiting on her to ship I providentially came across a Victorian jewelry book and as I flipped through it I saw a picture of my hairbrush woman. She was a brooch!! Under the picture it read: Unger Brothers "Evangeline" Sterling Silver Brooch [$xxx] at auction. Almost since that moment it seems my brain has been on fire for Unger Brothers silver! I have scoured [online auctions and online] for all the pieces and daily I browse certain key word searches to see if someone has posted something for sale which they have done no research for and has not marked properly as to draw many people to their auction (this is how I have found several of my growing collection, including the brush). I've also informed some [online] sellers of the true value of what they had, explaining to them who exactly made their brooch for sale. I even bought the reproduced catalogues and browse them frequently. I think one could consider me obsessed. Now here is my new concern... Now in checking my other pieces I found one brooch/belt pin that has an "altered" C clasp hook, but in all other aspects seems real. She even can be found in the 1904 catalogue reprint page 135 center page, item #0117. Here are her photos just for interest’s sake: Her front Her back Her clasp Now as I said, I am pretty sure she is for real because the only thing that throws me off is the clasp part, and that doesn’t look like it was a hack job. I do however have a brooch that now I am almost sure is a fake. I find her only as a watch pendant type fob in the 1904 catalogue and nowhere as a brooch. Of course if she was faked from the real thing there must be one like her somewhere. She has a solid feel to her and has pitting that is a tell tale sign of being cast (from what I understand of metal), her clasp is also snipped rather hastily just like the one in the article. The pin itself is very loose and looks as if it weren’t meant for the height it is at. And then there is the shiny spots around the clasp parts, they almost look as if someone wiped some vinegar or something on the back to make it tarnish but missed those spots. I have included photos of her as well: Back Cut Clasp Cast Dimples and Pock Marks Close Up of Makers Mark As I said of this one I am fairly sure it is a fake (again I’m glad this didn’t cost me much) and I know this is the peril of buying on [at auction], but I have yet to make it to any estate sales or antique fairs (soon, though not soon enough). So all this very long posting to bring me to these questions:
Thank you so much in advance and as you can tell from my long winded posting, I am so very VERY excited to join the silver collectors and appreciators community!!!!! -Grace Oh, P.S. IP: Logged |
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June Martin Forum Master Posts: 1326 |
posted 09-03-2012 09:31 PM
Hi, Grace. Really nice post. Thank you for introducing yourself. I'm hoping one of our members who is more well versed in Unger Bros can answer your questions. What I can say is that making some mistakes along the silver collecting highway is normal and actually really helpful. Once you make the mistakes, you learn and never make the same mistakes again. Keep up the good work and we look forward to hearing more from you. IP: Logged |
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AKgreengirl Posts: 19 |
posted 09-04-2012 01:53 PM
Thank you!! :0) Yeah I felt kinda dumb and duped with the suspendor clips, like I should have realized why no one was bidding when there was another one going for a higher price. But you're so right, you live and learn. :0) And of course buying online has a HUGE disadvantage because you can't do a physical inspection of "the goods." But I suppose with my fake pieces I can say that at least someone else didn't buy them and keep on truly believeing they were real. I can keep them off the market this way. I'm so glad to have found this community!! I'm a stay at home mom and I really don't get out much, so it's really nice to find a group of people who share in my new found silver craving. My husband doesn't truly get it, he's supportive, but I guess you have to have at least some level of the "collectors gene" as my family calls it, which he totally does not! LOL!! I even explained to him that in a way I'm investing (though at this point it would completely break my heart to have to part with any of my Unger pieces) and I bought a few silver bouillon pieces to sort of proove it to him. But my thought is, I'd rather it sit there looking pretty or actually be able to be used, than just sit in a box as a plain old hunk of metal (though really when is silver ever plain). In the mean time I get a thrill every time I add to my collection. I can almost picture myself as a pirate, hoarding my treasure, getting that little giggle and gleam in my eye every time I find a new piece. All I need is an eye patch (we will skip the peg leg for now). Thanks again for your reply. :0) IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 09-04-2012 03:56 PM
Hello Grace! Welcome to the forum! Glad you brought this subject up again as a reminder to beware of fakes. I have noticed that many of the listings for Unger pieces either fail to show the mark, or don't show a clear enough photo of it. That should send a signal for buyers to beware before buying. Good luck with your future purchases. Jersey IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 09-04-2012 06:20 PM
Hi Grace, Welcome to the forum! I am glad you found us and have joined in. I like your Unger things though I cannot offer any help since this is not my area of expertise. I am sorry to hear that you have been taken in either by fakes or repurposed originals. On the other hand, though, you are buying yourself an education. Just be glad that you have not yet discovered the really pricey things like Tiffany, Faberge, Cartier, and the like where I have the sense that a large percentage of what you come across on the auction sites and in more than a few dealer's stocks are forgeries. In these cases you can wind up paying huge sums for a lesson in fakes. IP: Logged |
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AKgreengirl Posts: 19 |
posted 09-04-2012 09:44 PM
Thank you Jersey! Yes, if they even deign to show a picture of the mark. I've seen some that just say in their description that it has the Unger Brothers mark. I think....um, no thanks. And now I know what to look for as far as some of the signs they are fakes. Thanks Kimo! In fact, there was a listing reciently that seemed real, except there was a line where there shouldn't be that looked too much like it could be a seam....hummmm, says me. I wouldn't have noticed that line if i wasn't looking for a fake. And it's sad that someone with skill enough to reproduce an original couldn't come up with their own work and because of that we have to be somewhat paranoid. I suppose that's a sign of the human predicament though... IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 09-04-2012 10:45 PM
You are learning about the really crude forgeries - ones that are cast metal from a mold and typically have easily visible pores or seams. This is a good place to start. Next you will want to learn about electroforming where the surface is made to an exact smooth reproduction. You can look up this process on the web, but essentially a plastic or rubber mold is made of the object and the interior of that negative mold is then electroplated to a good thickness then the metal object is removed from the mold as an exact reproduction. This is what the forgers in places like many countries of the former Soviet Union and Asia are doing these days and they have learned to do it so well and artificially apply aging and patina that it is very difficult to spot. Typically they do this on high value small objects such as ancient coins, jewelry, rare military badges, and the like. Selling these things on the internet and big auction sites are their main outlets. You should be especially leary of any sellers from these countries and while some are honest, a large number are not. Some have already learned to sell through US and Western European addresses though, and a fair amount of their trash has been making its way into collections and then being resold by people who may not know what they are really passing on. The only way to protect yourself is to learn what the real things look and feel like. IP: Logged |
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AKgreengirl Posts: 19 |
posted 09-05-2012 12:08 AM
Wow!!! That is scary! I found a coin site that talked about the "greatest coin forger in the world" and how he said something like, if I can create a forgery that the experts claim is genuine, then there is no fraud committed in selling that coin. Wow, a lie is a lie no matter if someone believes it or not....scary. That right there is enough to make someone second guess everything. It really takes the joy out of it doesn't it? Gosh. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 09-05-2012 06:09 PM
I don't want to scare you off collecting, just to help you learn so you will enjoy it with confidence when you collect the bigger name makers. Go to antique shows and such and spend time handling and examining things you like. Buy things that have serious and trustworthy provenance which is like a pedigree that goes back to their age of manufacture so you will know what real ones look and feel like, and the small details of their construction. IP: Logged |
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AKgreengirl Posts: 19 |
posted 09-05-2012 08:46 PM
Nah, you didn't scare me. It's more the people who make these fakes and the mentality that it is an ok thing to do as long as no one finds out. Eventually I hope to make it to some massive antique shows. I mean, I now live in a state which is pretty centrally located (compared to Alaska holy cow) so I should be able to reach some pretty cool ones. It's just a matter of coordinating husband time off. My hopes are to make it to the east coast to visit family in a year or so and I'm planning on sneeking a trip to the Newark museum in there. *sigh* that would be so interesting!! I really do appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me, any bits you can throw at me are instantly soaked up and logged away. IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 09-07-2012 06:44 AM
Sorry if I missed this if it was mentioned but the Unger pieces I've had had one or more holes in the back and were hollow. I've never seen a solid one. Also later repairs may throw someone off with a genuine piece. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 09-07-2012 05:43 PM
When you get to those big antiques shows you should spend time not only looking at things, but also talking to dealers especially at times when they are not so busy with customers. You should understand though that they can be fooled by decent forgeries and the ones who do not specialize in silver can be fooled by crude forgeries. Even well known museums have found forgeries in their own collections. The more you learn, the more likely you will be to avoid most mistakes and really enjoy the hobby. IP: Logged |
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AKgreengirl Posts: 19 |
posted 09-07-2012 11:32 PM
Thank you vathek. I was a teeny tiny bit concerned the holes where somehow a sign of something negative, but when I noticed them on more than one of my brooches I figured they were there originally. An added question: have you (or anyone) seen a brooch that had a raised mark, as if the mark was cut from something else and then soldered to the new piece, and was original to Unger Brothers? I don't have a photo that I have rights to to post here, but I've seen it in a couple of items at a big auction site and I have my very LARGE suspicions that is exactly what someone did. Can anyone confirm these suspicions? Kimo: all this talk of antique shows makes me remember when I was a little girl sitting in my grandma's antique store coloring at a little table to the side. Ah fond memories!! I'm going to go look up shows now. :0) IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 09-08-2012 04:21 PM
If you are talking about a 'raised' mark you have only seen in a photo or two that may be one of those odd tricks of the camera to make incuse marks look like they are raised instead. IP: Logged |
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AKgreengirl Posts: 19 |
posted 09-08-2012 04:49 PM
No, sorry my fault for bad description. I mean the whole mark it's self is on a circular piece of raised metal. When I see it, it totally looks as if the mark has been cut from something and "glued" to something else. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 09-08-2012 06:35 PM
I have seen the following several times. I don't know if the mark was added by Unger or not. It makes sense to me that a cast piece with so much detail on both sides wouldn't be easily struck with a makers mark die. So I expect the Ungers die struck their mark on a circular silver disk and sweated (solder) it onto the piece. Maybe Ulysses or another person more familiar with the practices of Unger will tell us conclusively? IP: Logged |
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AKgreengirl Posts: 19 |
posted 09-09-2012 10:27 AM
Sorry for the tardiness... I had posted a reply but somehow it ended up in my other thread. I have no idea how that happened as I was on this thread when I posted (I thought). Has anyone else been getting the message "502 bad response: bad gateway" too? I have gotten it on my phone and on my computer alike. Here is my reply I thought I posted LOL Thank you Scott for the picture. IP: Logged |
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