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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 A Curator's Viewpoint
 FB Rogers, Wm. A Rogers, LBCO
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| Author | Topic: FB Rogers, Wm. A Rogers, LBCO |
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Brick unregistered |
posted 12-21-2002 04:41 PM
 
I would like to buy my wife a piece of silver for a table display. I would like to buy her a solid silver piece. In others words, not silver plated. I have seen some pieces that I like that are not marked as to the silver content. The only markings are the ones listed above in the subject line. I have asked people if the items were solid silver or silver plated, no one really knows. Is there any way to know without scratching the pieces? There is another piece that appears to be a two handled basket without a bottom that has no other markings other than on the bottom of each handle. Both handles say 'ITALY'. One handle has a crown motif with 'ITALY' beneath it, with a shield with the letters 'WA' beneath. The other handle appears to have a shield in which the letters 'PAM' are above a chalice with an ear of corn motif. Below this shield is the word 'ITALY'. Is there any way to tell if the 18 FB Rogers Co. 83 (a water pitcher), or Wm. A. Rogers Co. (serving platter with cover, and butter server), LBCO (butter server), or the WA and PAM piece described above are solid silver or silver plated? Thank you for your help. IP: Logged |
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WGS Posts: 136 |
posted 12-21-2002 07:08 PM
You can be quite sure that something manufactured in the United States since 1865 and marked "STERLING" or 925 or 925/1000 is truly sterling. That is 925 parts slver out of a thousand. Other countries have other standards and marking systems. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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June Martin Forum Master Posts: 1326 |
posted 12-21-2002 10:58 PM
If you are serious about buying your wife a nice piece of solid silver, visit reputable silver dealers (trust me, I'm a wife). There will be no question as to whether something is solid silver or silver plate. Make sure the sales receipt fully describes the item you are purchasing including silver content. If, on the other hand, you are interested in the thrill of the search and possibly finding a bargain, educate yourself (and trust me here, this is time consuming but can be lots of fun.) Read books on silver, narrow your scope of interest by period and country of manufacture or by style or maker, talk to silver experts, etc. There are no easy answers with silver just as there are no easy answeres on any other sophisticated field of interest. The best I can recommend is that the English have been very meticulous about the marking of their silver. But even then, you need to educate yourself and arm yourself with adequate reference material. Check out our Silver Library for some ideas about references and possible areas of interest. IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 12-23-2002 10:42 AM
Gee, no one waited for the curator's viewpoint. I guess that's 'cause I don't work weekends... What everyone said is just right. I don't know where you're from, but what you buy your wife depends on what you really want. If it's purely the look you want, then there is plenty of solid (sterling, or 800 standard) European silver out there, being auctioned off by the major houses in NY. You can generally trust what they say. On the other hand, if you want American or English stuff, that tends to be a little more expensive in the American market--but there are still bargains, depending on what period and what style you want. There is plenty of high-style solid silver being sold these days that is dirt cheap compared to what it would cost to reproduce it. Showy pieces from the early 20th century are idea targets for a good value display object(and things that are in "period" style, because "modern" styles such as art nouveau or arts and crafts things tend to get more costly because there are collectors out there prowling). Ultimately, if you're a rank neophyte, a knowledgeable dealer is probably the right place to start. But if the dealer can't tell you if it's plated or solid silver, get out of there. IP: Logged |
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Brick unregistered |
posted 12-23-2002 03:05 PM
Thank you for the replies. I was hoping for a little hands on expertise. Perhaps some direct questions will serve the purpose. The marks that I mentioned were not addressed. Is that because the companies made both solid silver and silver plated items? I am familiar with sterling and coin silver. I consider both to be 'solid'. Deposition of silver onto another metal is plated. Pure silver is solid, without alloy. Are there nondestructive methods for evaluating a piece in the hand other than weight, and mark? In the absence of a mark, what? If a piece is of stamped manufacture and is marked or not, does that mean silver plate? Without an assay are we all susceptible to a good silverplating over a base metal of similar weight? Is it as simple as if a piece was 'solid' silver it WOULD have a mark to that effect? With all the styles, items and marks or no marks it is much more problematic for me to get a proper feel for such items. Coins are so much simpler. All help is appreciated. Thank you for your time. IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 12-23-2002 03:22 PM
I'll take a crack at it. We were all just being indirect. The marks you indicate are all plating firms, and typically firms that make only plate (unless otherwise noted: no STERLING, then it's plated). Likewise, the ITALY mark is a plated piece, of a sort that was imported in large quantity from the 1940s on to the present. If it was sterling, and imported into the US from 1890 on, it would have to say STERLING somewhere, or 925-1000. THe bottom line, if it has a maker's name on it, and it's less than 150 years old and it doesn't say STERLING, it's plated. THe confusion arises in that Continental European things often do not SAY STERLING (if not originally made for export to the US), but have other marks that mean the equivalent of STERLING. England, too, has distinctive marks for STERLING stuff, but usually don't use the word itself. Any piece from any country that is solid silver will have some sort of mark to that effect--but those marks are not always obvious to the uninitiated. They were obvious to customs inspectors and government tax agencies. Consumers generally have always trusted their retail suppliers. IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 12-23-2002 03:28 PM
More. Sterling silver was stamped out like automobile hubcaps from the 1890s to the 1940s. So stamping is not a sign of non-solid silver. It's just the sign of mechanized manufacture--and some mass-produced silver is very nicely designed, just as some hand-made silver is very badly designed. It depends on what you're looking for. If a silver object has no mark at all, then I'd suggest you avoid it, because there is so much marked silver that you can at least research. Very early silver is sometimes unmarked, and early coin and sterling in the US does not have any standard indicator. Again, if you're looking at something in a shop, and the vendor can't answer your questions, you'd be best to look somewhere else. There's no non-destructive way to test silver for solid-versus-plated; weight doesn't really help, because thin solid silver can be far lighter weight that thick plated metal. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 12-23-2002 05:50 PM
quote: For the most part Ulysses is correct. Because the average dealer or collector will not have the caliber equipment required to do the non-destructive (non-invasive) tests. The easiest non-invasive test to use is the Specific Gravity test (a.k.a., hydrostatic weighting). This process requires a very sensitive and accurate scale, thermometer, and distilled water. Most often this test is used on small solid (not hollow) objects but with the right sized equipment it can be done with any solid object of any size. I am sure that only a few of you would be interested in hearing the details of how to do this test and other non-invasive scientific tests. Of those interested few, most already have a copy of our book The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects in which I describe the process in detail. Without photos of the pieces and closeups of the marks I would have to aggree with everyone that it sounds like silverplate IP: Logged |
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Brick unregistered |
posted 12-24-2002 11:32 AM
Thank you! Great stuff both of your posts! Regarding the book, I assume electrical conductivity is a nondestructive option? I am leery of a book full of makers marks though. Is it written for the evaluation of high end items or can it be useful for the lower end single spoon type guy, like me? I appreciate all the help given here. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all! IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 12-24-2002 01:56 PM
quote: Non-destructive, YES. But generally not a really accurate method except in some very specific circumstances.
quote: Hopefully The Guide has something for everyone. The complete title is The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects For Appraisers - Dealers - Collectors. So as a Collector you should find it helpfull but if you are really a "single spoon type guy" then maybe not. Jeff Herman's review seems to give a good overview. (Click here) The Silver Salon Forums are for discussing silver and not for promotion so maybe I had better stop pitching my book. But thanks for asking. IP: Logged |
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