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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 A Curator's Viewpoint
 Monogram Removals
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| Author | Topic: Monogram Removals |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 03-12-2006 05:10 AM
  
I just received a few new pieces into my collection and to my surprise, two of them have monogram removals. I am very much against removing engravings, or any alterations, for that matter. I would normally have returned them, as it was not listed in the auctions, but these pieces are exceptionally nice. Also, they apparently did not buff the entire piece, so they don't stand out at all, you have to look for them. They are well done, atleast. My question is how does the museum curator look at this situation? And how do you know if the silver is too thin where it happened? (they are both holloware pieces) asheland IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 03-12-2006 06:38 AM
I am not a curator but a rather academic collector and take a pragmatic view of monograms, and other ownership marks. As collectors or curators we must accept pieces with all their history, not that which we wish to see. Silverware was often monogramed or crested later than its origin, often by removal of the original owners marks. Sometimes by donors on gift many years later - one often sees Georgian pieces with a totally , to our eyes, hideous insciption to some late Victorian receipiant. But one must accept this as part of its history. And should never be removed in my opinion. Value is another matter - it devalues the piece tremendously unless the new owner was famous and there is provenance to prove its authenticity. Concerning thinness after erasure - if it flexes badly after the erasure its bad. If it develops holes its very bad ! If it fal apart it's terminal
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 03-12-2006 10:17 AM
It seems the dealers who ask me to remove monos are the ones who are trying to turn a modest piece into a more salable item. If it is already a great tray, tea set, vase with a mono they leave it. As for the gauge, Clive knows of what he speaks! Hand engraving varies in depth especially at the seriffs, so when 95% of the lines are gone there can be tiny little pock marks left. Getting these out is where on thin gauge metal it can get iffy. If one drew a thumb nail across this area a dent could easily be left, do not do this! Rather gentle presure with the pad will often give a sence of the thickness. If it flexes easily it is getting toward to thin but it can be very thin as long as it is sound, no pin holes, thin gashes that go through or puckering where the metal shows it to be foil thin! IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 03-12-2006 08:20 PM
Hi and thanks for the replies. I applied a good amount of pressure on both items in the areas in question and it didn't give at all. It appears they were lightly done monos and the metal is very thick on both pieces. Infact, the wavy hammer marks on both are still there, just less than the surrounding areas. Somewhat like it was plannished more in that area. It doesn't really look that bad. I feel better about these items after reading these opinions. Thanks again! asheland IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 03-13-2006 09:01 AM
I am one of those curatorial people who love inscriptions, even added ones, assuming they don't disfigure, and assuming that they were not replacing something else. As the folks above this reply noted, a well-documented history can made even an aesthetically icky inscription worthy. We have three major 18th-century pieces in our collection, all of which have later added inscriptions or monograms, and all of which express the changing meaning of the objects. We have a 1740 tankard by Joseph Richardson, Sr., of Philadelphia, that became an "heirloom" in the 1790s and bears a series of wedding gift inscriptions up through the Civil War. I wouldn't remove these for the world, although purists might hate them. Likewise, we have Elias Pelletreau's own rococo teapot from the 1760s, left to his daughter (and eldest child) in lieu of real estate or his silver shop; his granddaughter's victorian monogram is right below the silversmith's own 18th-century monogram. It tells a valuable story. And, finally, a 1750s rococo sugar bowl by Elias Boudinot, made for Ann Dunkin in Philadelphia, subsequently presented as a christening gift to eight generations of FEMALE descendants--each generation got a monogram and a date on one of the curved flutes of the bowl. Maybe someday I'll do an entire article/exhibition/publication on inscriptions and monograms...but who would care? IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 03-13-2006 11:49 AM
Ulysses, I think a lot of people would care. Many owners of old pieces, and certainly most collectors and curators, view themselves as custodians, preseerving history for future generations. Alterations should not be made, and, as you have said, the provenance as expressed in monograms and inscriptions is part of that history. Such an article would be valuable as it would educate those unaware of those aspects to the importance of such preservation. IP: Logged |
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Raf Steel Posts: 94 |
posted 03-14-2006 07:08 AM
Monograms are still a great help in dating 'modern silver' (1880-1940), when a lot of the models were in fabrication for a long period. As a dealer, I have never removed initails, inscriptions or monograms, it is part of the life of the piece. I tell my clients it is also a great help in trying to identify a piece in case of theft. Finally, what is more consoling than finding an important piece by a good maker with one's own initials on it! IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 03-14-2006 09:19 PM
The wisest silverphile I personally know, Charles Curb, always had a great way of putting the isssue. Collectors want silver that has been loved and cared for because it tends to be in great condition. And it also tends to be monogramed as people take better care of their own monogramed silver. IP: Logged |
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