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 A Curator's Viewpoint
 Silver as a teaching tool
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| Author | Topic: Silver as a teaching tool |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 07-18-2008 01:53 PM
  
It's still Friday and I'm still avoiding other work. Here are two pieces, both of which are important to this museum and me as a curator. But they are NOT the same! First we have a federal cake basket by William G. Forbes, early 1800s. And its mark. Then we have a William B. Kerr smoking set, early 1900s, and its mark. Both can teach the lay person (i.e. NOT a silver freak like moi) about life in the past. The Forbes basket teaches about the day when "cakes" were cookies, and were special treats for the prosperous--and were served in lavish silver thingies like this. The mass-produced Kerr smoking set, made in Newark, expresses a day when silver was plentiful and cheap and could be had by middle-class folks--and also cigarettes were plentiful and cheap and considered socially acceptable to smoke in the presence of ladies and children. Just some of the many ways I think about silver, and regret not having more space to play with it in my galleries. IP: Logged |
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ellabee Posts: 306 |
posted 07-21-2008 01:01 PM
Can't seem to tear my eyes away from the polishing (?) scratches on the base of the Kerr piece. They seem almost purposeful... like an ID technique subtler than scratching on numbers or initials. IP: Logged |
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FredZ Posts: 1070 |
posted 07-21-2008 03:35 PM
There is a technique known as a "watch case finish" that uses an abrasive slury on a rotating shaft to create overlaping brushed circles. The technique is often used on the bottom of objects. I have used it on the backs of some of my brooches. Fred IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 07-21-2008 07:29 PM
Hello Fred! Make I ask the purpose of doing that, ie., the watch case finish? Thank you. Jersey IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 07-22-2008 09:36 AM
I have always assumed that this sort of finish (which I do recall seeing inside watch cases, but also on the bottoms of pieces of silver, often unlikely ones) is a later finish. It has been my assumption that this is done to conceal/eliminate scratching on the bottom of a piece which is being resold. I bought a Tiffany "Renaissance" dessert plate for the collection (no picture, alas) back in 1987, and the bottom has this "watch-case" finish. I'm sure it is not original, but was added when the plate re-entered the market. [This message has been edited by Ulysses Dietz (edited 07-22-2008).] IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 07-22-2008 09:51 AM
I agree with Ulysses that in the case of this sort of finish and piece and placement it's likely after-market as a concealer. The watch-case finish (same technique but smaller circles, from a smaller grinder) is applied more deeply. For really amazing examples of this kind of decoration turn to the world of luxury automobiles in the 1930s. Duesenberg, for example, was known to use this technique extensively, including on dashboards and engine parts. The generic term for the technique is engine-turning, since it's done with, as Fred notes, an engine-driven rotary shaft. The classic form follows what's called hexagonal packing: the center for each circle is placed on the circumference of the previous, with each successive line offset by one radius. The result is that each circle's circumference has six centers spaced around (except on the edges of the pattern). Geometrically it's the highest density of packing achievable, so it occurs regularly in nature (e.g. beehives). Of course it also makes a very pleasing visual pattern.... IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 07-22-2008 01:26 PM
The power of brand names: What do you when your husband wins the Civil War and suddenly you have money? You go to Tiffany's! America's first great brand name. Julia Grant, suddenly the wife of the most famous man in the western world, knew where to shop, even though she didn't live in NY. Admittedly, she did buy her flatware and Bailey's in Philadelphia (Gorham Medallion with a "G"). P.S.: I gave this piece to The Newark Museum years ago. IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 09-05-2008 09:34 AM
OK, now that the kids are back in school. What could we teach kids about with THIS baby (which I know I have posted, probably in the defunct Tiffany forum? I have just finally pinned down the last clue that (I think) explains its meaning. Come on class, don't everybody jump at once! IP: Logged |
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doc Posts: 728 |
posted 09-05-2008 12:09 PM
Well, I think I have the translation, which roughly translated says "which of these two should I listen to?" One cherub looks bigger than the other, has wavier hair and has 6 spots on the wing instead of 5, but don't know what that would mean! IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 09-05-2008 12:12 PM
Ok, for a start. But what does it all MEAN? Here's a new angle: What information would YOU want on a label in a museum about this piece? IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 09-05-2008 12:43 PM
Plain Jane aka Mrs. Mary Jane Sexton Morgan. A very savy young lady who amassed one of the best collections of all times. A former teacher of french & math, she married Charles Morgan many years her senior who did not believe in banks. I think the piece says listen to your heart & your head. She did & the lesson that can be learned is one of investing in quality antiques. BTW Her Auction Catalogue is being offered on you know where.
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Kayvee Posts: 204 |
posted 09-05-2008 12:58 PM
Since it is Friday and we're all taking a break, I'll take a stab. The identity of the lady and the nature of her dilemma might be solved by the coat of arms at the bottom of the plate. Could you provide another clue by telling us what the yellow enamel(?) shield contains please? Is it a letter? It looks a little blurry on my monitor. Thanks. IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 09-05-2008 01:28 PM
Well, Jersey obviously knows what the object is, because it was in Mary Jane Morgan's collection. As to the shield at the bottom, that's a heart inlaid in gold. It is about love, but the image on the dish (20" diameter) is related to a specific literary source; and the clues are the old French legend at the top (correctly translated, more or less--Which of these shall I heed?) and the curious figure-8 thingies on the border. I'll let people look and get back with the answer on Monday if no one guesses. IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 09-05-2008 09:09 PM
Choosing the gold, silver, or lead casket in The Merchant of Venice? But it was the dudes who did the choosing, and I don't know what that would have to do with the squiggles, so that can't be it. IP: Logged |
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seaduck Posts: 350 |
posted 09-06-2008 10:23 AM
I'm sorry, Ulysses, I can't focus on your puzzle. I'm still blown away by the revelation that 'cakes' were actually cookies. I'm busily revising a lifetime's worth of images of literary scenes, starting with Jane Austen. IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 09-06-2008 10:15 PM
Following images are of what I know as 'machine turning'. IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 09-06-2008 11:32 PM
From "Cooking for Two," by Jane MacKenzie Hill, first published round about 1909, a useful volume I like to give to newlyweds: ENGLISH TEA CAKES 1 1/2 cups of flour Sift together the flour, sugar, salt and baking powder; with the tips of the fingers work in the butter; beat the egg, reserving a tablespoonful of the egg to glaze the cakes, add the milk to the egg and use to mix the dry ingredients to a dough. With the hands roll the dough into balls the size of an English walnut. Set the balls in a buttered pan, some distance apart, brush over with the egg, dredge with sugar and bake in a quick oven. The recipe makes about fifteen cakes. They are good and quickly made.
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 09-07-2008 12:04 AM
My current guess about that platter is that it has something to do with the Arabian Nights. IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 09-07-2008 04:32 AM
There is a carved column capital in the church at Kelmscot (on the English River Thames) with a similar motif. Probably around 1300 -1400. I've always regarded it as a representation of "everyman" with an angel and a devil each presenting him with a choice , good or evil. The interesting thing is that both are virtually identical- no wings or horns to give us a clue. The mediaeval mind was really more subtle than we realise today. I think the two cherubs on the silver piece are saying [This message has been edited by Clive E Taylor (edited 09-07-2008).] IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 09-07-2008 11:00 AM
There are many claims to the invention of baking powder; e.g., Alfred Bird in 1843, , unnamed Americans in 1790 and August Oetker in 1891. A search of the internet with --“baking powder” invention-- turns up quite a number of pretenders and confirms Clive’s astute observation of the intelligence of our ancestors. I do not have a clue as to the old French legend, but the figure 8 symbols do resemble the infinity sign. IP: Logged |
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dragonflywink Posts: 993 |
posted 09-07-2008 11:33 AM
Okay, I'll take a stab at it - despite the French rather than Italian words, and taking her Renaissance attire into consideration, could it be depicting Francesca from Dante's Inferno and the moral choice she made concerning her love for Paolo that consequently set them both into an infinite, never-ending whirlwind (though it's not really an infinity symbol with those trailing tails)? Ehhh, just a WAG on my part, but it certainly is lovely and must be quite impressive at that size. ~Cheryl IP: Logged |
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Kayvee Posts: 204 |
posted 09-07-2008 12:01 PM
While Clive’s answer is probably the correct one and Cheryl's reasoning is excellent, my own WAG is that the literary source is the major medieval French moral allegory the Roman de la Rose or Romance of the Rose, given the old French legend, the rosettes along the border of the plate and the reddish background colour. But what do the figure-of-eight knots symbolize – unity, infinity? And why does the woman have vaguely (to me) oriental looking features and a Renaissance-style bodice? A delightful riddle. I can’t wait to read the answer! IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 09-07-2008 04:01 PM
She seems to be a cross between Kwan Yin & Shiva. Jersey IP: Logged |
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dragonflywink Posts: 993 |
posted 09-07-2008 04:36 PM
Can't say that I see an Asian look to the lady, she just seems to have her eyes castdown - I do that when I'm listening carefully, seems to be a fairly common reaction to whispering in the ear. ~Cheryl IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 09-08-2008 09:23 AM
You are all very smart, and it was an unfair thing to expect you to know the answer. When the piece came up at auction in 1998 people were trying to see the lady as Asian, but while her headdress is a little exotic, the costume and jewelry looked very Renaissance. But it was my background as a French major that helped me. The other BIG clue (which I should have given you, it was in the Auction entry) was that in the Tiffany archives it is listed as "Medallion Henry II". It refers to the court of Henri II, husband of Catherine de Medici and boyfriend of the much older Diane de Poitiers. So I figured that it meant the constant illicit romancing going on at the French court, where people married off as teenagers were torn between their legitimate "loves" (i.e. marriaged) and their heart-felt romances. Cupids were routinely referred to as Loves in 19th century lingo. The odd infinity-sign knots were meaningless to me until, on a research trip in Lisbon, I saw the same motif associated with Dona Maria Pia, Portugal's Italian born queen in the 19th century. She was of the house of Savoia (Savoie, Savoy), and the figure 8 knot is called the "Knot of Savoy." The Savoie family's French branch were very much part of 16th-century French politics. So I knew there was something specific there... I actually dragged out my college French reading, La Princesse de Cleves, by Madame de LaFayette, written in 1678, but set in the court of Henri II (to disguise the links to the court of Louis IV). The pieces finally fell into place when I realized that in the novel (considered the first novel ever written in French) the princess of the title is fictitious, but most of the characters around her were based on real figures. In the book, the fictitious princess is married as a teenager to the nice, but distant prince; and then she falls in love with an important courtier--the Duc de Nemours. And the duke's family name was (drum roll) Jacques de Savoie. The Savoy knots in the border refer to him, and thus the image is based on the Princesse de Cleves--which was reissued in 1868 and 1875. Ta-daaaa! IP: Logged |
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Kayvee Posts: 204 |
posted 09-08-2008 09:42 AM
Very cool. Thank you for the full explanation. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 09-08-2008 10:21 AM
La Princesse de Cleves is in the curriculum at Washington State University and the WSU professor has a whole series of interesting study aids for his students. Ulysses, thanks for the interesting thread. [This message has been edited by Scott Martin (edited 09-15-2021).] IP: Logged |
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dragonflywink Posts: 993 |
posted 09-08-2008 12:24 PM
Fascinating stuff! Thanks for sharing it with us. ~Cheryl IP: Logged |
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doc Posts: 728 |
posted 09-08-2008 02:20 PM
I was waiting all weekend for the answer. I don't know if that says more about the state of my existence or the great challenge put forth by Ulysses-I prefer to think it is the latter! Thank you for the entertainment. IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 09-08-2008 02:42 PM
Hey, I read that book twice! Once in college and once a couple of years ago. But I would never have guessed anyway--the squiggles had me stumped. IP: Logged |
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seaduck Posts: 350 |
posted 09-08-2008 06:00 PM
Me, too! I think I still have a copy somewhere. I think, Ullysses, that you have an eager audience here. Teach us something else! IP: Logged |
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adelapt Posts: 418 |
posted 09-08-2008 06:08 PM
Marvellous little excursion thanks Ulysses. Did the Tiffany archives give any information on the reason for this being made - as in for commission, presentation or whatever? IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 09-09-2008 08:24 AM
quote: Is it possible that the maker of the cake basket is indicated by the pseudo hallmarks as is the case with Captain Watlington's cups in a recent post? Sorry, I can't make out these pseudo marks. IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 09-09-2008 01:47 PM
I'm pretty sure Forbes is the maker and that those are HIS pseudo hallmarks, which show up on retailer-marked pieces in this period. Others, out there, am I right? IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 09-09-2008 01:49 PM
Oh, and in regard to the Tiffany sideboard dish...it was made for and exhibited at the United States Centennial in Philadelphia i 1876, and then again at the Paris Exposition Universelle of 1878--and that's where Mary Jane Morgan bought it. Tiffany and other silvermakers produced these showpieces for exhibitions, but often did not sell them. Morgan's dish sold (along with another one, which is in a private collection now) in 1886. Newark's "Princess of Cleves" dish disappeared in 1886 and only resurfaced out of a private collection in 1998. IP: Logged |
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ellabee Posts: 306 |
posted 09-10-2008 02:19 AM
Thanks so much for this, Ulysses. Can you say a little more about the composition of the piece? Is it multi-metal, or enamel-plus-inlay on silver, or...? IP: Logged |
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doc Posts: 728 |
posted 09-10-2008 05:02 AM
And dimensions, please! IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 09-10-2008 10:26 AM
It is sterling, inlaid with copper, gold and niello (a metal sulphide? that turns black). 20" diameter. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-10-2009 05:51 PM
quote:
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 01-12-2009 09:07 AM
Wow. Really? I must have known that once, because I know Chris Laidlaw and must have read her article. Geez, I've forgotten a lot. IP: Logged |
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