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Author Topic:   Hyde & Goodrich
Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 09-02-1999 10:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As I understand it, then general consensus is that Hyde and Goodrich of New Orleans were not silversmiths, but retailers and importers. I have a spoon that poses an interesting question for me (It may have already been hashed out by someone, but I haven't seen it) Anyway, my spoon has the Hyde & Goodrich intaglio mark, but it also has what appears to be a French .950 standard mark (Head of Minerva in an Octagon). On the opposite side of the handle is the "cloth mark" you often see on French flatware. In addition, the spoon's fiddle pattern is very rounded, in the French style. My question is this: Is this a French spoon marked by Hyde & Goodrich, or a spoon of local manufacture made to look like a French spoon? The standard mark is slightly crude, and it is missing the numeral 1 which usually appears to the right of the head. Has anyone researched this question before? I would appreciate any input. Thanks a lot!

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Ted

Posts: 17
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 09-07-1999 11:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ted     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
An interesting question about Hyde & Goodrich. I am in agreement that Hyde & Goodrich were mainly retailers. This grows somewhat murky when it is realized that Hyde & Goodrich formed an association with Christoph Christian Kuchler And Adolphe Himmel in New Orleans. We don't know whether Hyde & Goodrich were instrumental in bringing these two Germans to N.O. or whether the association was made after they arrived.
But it is thought that by 1853 Himmel was manufacturing holloware exclusively for Hyde & Goodrich. I wonder what the financial arrangements were, because during this time Hyde & Goodrich marked some items "manufacturers". There seems to be no evidence of flatware being made in this relationship.
This brings us to your piece of flatware. Hyde & Goodrich was a large dominant firm in N.O. and it can be assumed that they were importers. There are several pieces of "Paris" porcelain marked by N.O. retailers so it stands to reason that silver was also imported from France. With their prominence in N.O., I see no reason they would copy French marks on silver. It seems to me that the more likely case would be that they imported this piece and affixed their mark, as was the custom.
So, I think it likely that your piece was imported. Bear in mind, much of this is supposition.
Ted Stickney

------------------
American coin silver dealer

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 09-07-1999 01:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Belton indicates that H&G was listed in directories as 'Manufactures' as early as 1816. Later billheads and adverts are worded "Importers and sellers of fancy goods, etc" This around the time they actually started marking items 'Manufacturer.' The company is certainly ripe for further study. I agree with Ted's idea about importation of French goods, but would not be surprised if they used a pseudo-French hallmark to appeal to the tastes and demands of a New Orleans clientele. They seem to have carried a wide and varied assortment of goods. I understand that various uniform buttons they offered prior to and during the Civil War are highly sought after. I have a pair of sugar tongs in olive pattern with the most detailed claw ends I have ever seen. They are marked 'Hyde & Goodrich' incuse on each arm. The interesting bit is that they are also scratch marked '2 oz/61 dwt/1823' which would, if it is to be believed, indicate a very early date for this pattern.

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Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 09-07-1999 10:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I did see a lecture on the furniture trade in New Orleans, where it was revealed that many furniture retailers listed themselves as manufacturers when they were nothing of the sort. Based on that evidence, I would have to question any "Manufacturer" claims from New Orleans firms. Just thought I would pass that along. Thanks for the input!

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Ted

Posts: 17
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 09-08-1999 10:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ted     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think all this is true but I think we sometimes get a little too conspiracy minded about this. It was perfectly normal and the accepted practice to sign silver that was retailed. It was not meant to deceive.
According to "Crescent City Silver" published by "The Historic New Orleans Collection" James Nevin Hyde who died in New Orleans in 1838: "In all probibility, James Nevin Hyde was the only partner of Hyde & Goodrich who was a silversmith. His ability appears to have been limited to spectacles and spoons. While in partnership with Nevins, he is known to have retailed hollowware by William B. Heyer of New York."
The important thing is that you have a rare piece of N.O. Silver whether it was made or imported.

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Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 09-08-1999 07:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks! I was wondering if anyone had seen other pieces marked in this fashion, which might serve to tip the scales one way or the other.

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Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 08-29-2001 10:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Here is another long-overdue picture post. Note the shape of the spoon; this style is very much in the French taste. On the top of the handle you can see the "cloth mark" or counterstrike, opposite the Minerva head on the back. Vintage French flatware usually has these marks.

The head of Minerva in this shape surround signifies the French first standard, or 950/1000 pure silver. This particular stamp looks a little fishy to me, but the cloth mark certainly looks genuine.

I showed this to the proprietors of the As You Like It Silver Shop in New Orleans, and they pronounced it a French piece. I figure they should know!

At any rate, an interesting piece of flatware!

Brent

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Barbara
unregistered
iconnumber posted 09-07-2001 08:26 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So maybe test to see if the spoon
is 950/1000. If it is not, you
will know that the Minerva is
indeed fishy and that the spoon
is likely American-made (assuming
that it tests around 900/1000).

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GDGardner
unregistered
iconnumber posted 01-20-2002 05:46 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Minerva head would not have been a widely recognized pseudo hallmark for an American manufacturer to have used, even one in New Orleans catering to a Creole, French loving consumer base. H&G imported silver directly from France, as they did porcelains and clocks that have their retailers name. H&G utilized the term "importers" in their logo for many years, yet they referenced their local New Orleans factory by 1857.

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akgdc

Posts: 289
Registered: Sep 2001

iconnumber posted 01-21-2002 03:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for akgdc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That Minerve mark certainly doesn't look kosher to me ... and French hallmarks were so strictly regulated that there should not have been much leeway. Also, French silver was required to bear a maker's mark in a lozenge, and there's no sign of one on this spoon (nor does the "Hyde & Goodrich" mark seem to be overstriking one.

Indeed, if the spoon were a legal export from France it would have to bear not the Minerve mark but the head of Mercury, a very different mark.

Also, the spoon does not appear to be of true French manufacture -- certainly not Parisian, the likeliest candidate for export. The bowl, especially, is the wrong shape and appears too thin.

I'd bet a silver teaspoon that this was made in New Orleans by H&G or someone working for them, copying a genuine French spoon. The only question is why .... Maybe it was a replacement piece, but in that case why the trouble to copy the mark, too?

A very interesting artifact anyhow.

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 01-21-2002 03:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Or it was simply bought in with other old silver by Hyde & Goodrich, marked with their name, and re-sold -- a not uncommon occurrence when silver was short or there was a good profit to be had. And the French were as lax about full marks on sets as the English, though I admit the mark looks a bit fishy to me as well.

[This message has been edited by wev (edited 01-21-2002).]

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GDGardner
unregistered
iconnumber posted 01-23-2002 09:46 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The form of the spoon is not correct for local manufacture, either. It more closely resembles Austro-German styling from mid-century, and certainly is too crude for Parisian silver. Possibly made elsewhere in central/western Europe and wholesaled by a French distributor to H&G. It would account for the lack of a maker's mark. Did the French require an export mark for silver NOT made in France? I really don't know, but would guess they didn't.

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Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 01-25-2002 01:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As keeper of the spoon, here is my take on all of these interesting theories.

1.) As you say, the spoon is of lighter gauge than one would expect from a French maker.

2.) The Minerve head does look wrong, even in a worn condition as it is. Also, there should be a numeral 1 to the side of the head to denote the first standard, and it is NOT present.

Right now, as I was in the beginning, I am leaning towards a conclusion that this is not a French-made spoon.

The possibility that this was made elsewhere in Europe and wholesaled through a French middleman is intriguing. The form, though, looks more French to me than middle-European.
I have seen other American-made silver spoons with this form, notably by Chaudron's & Rasch of Philadelphia, who specialized in silver of the latest French style. I still think it likely that this spoon was actually made in the US, in the French style, and given fake French marks. Anthony Rasch was working in New Orleans from the 1830's to the 1850's, and is a possible culprit in this caper.

Thank you for all of your input and expertise!

Brent

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akgdc

Posts: 289
Registered: Sep 2001

iconnumber posted 01-25-2002 11:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for akgdc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was about to point that spoon out, but eagle-eyed wev beat me to it. That one's definitely not French .... no Minerve in sight.

As for Mr Gardner's question .... yes, the French required proper hallmarks for *everything*. They were even stricter on this than the British, especially post-1800.

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11520
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 11-14-2005 11:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
more info on Adolphe Himmel:

quote:
Adolphe Himmel Sr.
Author: F V Stiles
    A note from: Fran Stiles <xnursefran@netzero.com>
    GGgrandaughter of Adolphe Himmel
    Can anyone help me with more info on European training during ealry 1800's? I would like to find more on his early life.

Background -

- name sake-> Himmel Park Tucson, Az.; Immigrated from Austria, by way of France. {possibly exiled due to Austrian Habsburg {Duke] aristocracy. He changed his name to Himmel, the Saxon equivalent of "Smith", to become anonymous.

Adolphe Himmel - silversmith - born in 1826, Arrive in New Orleans in .1852. 1861 New Orleans City Directory (Ancestry); was found in the New Orleans, 1875- census; listed with a Daniel Rhem, 260 Union Street.,
found a death certificate for a A. Himmel, 51yrs, Aug 21, 1877. [pg 695, vol 69]

The book also gives his various partnerships:

  • With Kuchler & Himmel 1852-53
  • With Hyde & Goodrich 1853-186l
  • With Thomas, Griswold & Co. 1861-65
  • With A.B. Girswold & Co. 1865-b9
  • With A. Himmel Silverware Manufactory 1.869-77

Himmel worked alone and later with Kuchler, then Hyde & Goodrich, and AB Griswold.

ADOLPHE HIMMEL
The large incised "H" appearing on Hyde & Goodrich pieces is the mark of Adolphe Himmel.

Himmel, according to family tradition, was born in Zweibriicken.? Germany. For reasons now obscure, but undoubtedly connected with the political turmoil in 1844 he left Germany and changed his name to Himmel in order to escape detection He was so thorough in obscuring his true identity that his actual surname has not yet been discovered.

Himmel fist appears in the New Orleans directories for 1852, in partnership with Chrestopf Christian Kuchler. This partnership. although active only briefly, produced pieces bearing only the Kuchler & Himmel mark, as well as those articles retailed through Hyde & Goodrich. In 1853, the partnership was dissolved.

Himmel began manufacturing exclusively for Hyde & Goodrich, he was not the sole supplier to the firm. Pieces from this period also bear the mark of Kuchler.

After 1855, Himmel's operation on the corner of Bienville and Derbigny Streets appears to have been the exclusive supplier of locally made hollow ware for Hyde & Goodrich and its successor.

Thomas, Griswold & Co.. later A.B. Griswold & Co. Himmel continued as chief silversmith for A.B. Griswold & t until roughly 1869.

In 1869, Himmel moved his operations from the corner of Bienville and Derbigny Streets to Poydras Street, and worked there until his death in 1877.
Hammer's business was taken over try Henry Hausmann, a former business associate of Himmel.

Himmel is known to have traveled to New York. Certain of his designs are evidently based on pieces produced by Tiffany, Young & Ellis and Tiffany & Co. of New York during the 1850s.

  • Harriette Fallon Himmel or spelling -Fallen-Felen, was supposed to be from France,[?Paris] Married to Adolphe Himmel
    Children: -
  • Bertha Casius Himmel, Married Emmile Laroussini, 5/18/ 1877;
    children -
    Rita Madge 5/3/1885 in Louisiana;
    son - Artur Frederikeick 3/1/1889;
    Charles Pius 11/21/1892;
  • Henretta Himmel - b. 1/24/1858
  • Adolph Himmel {son] 8/8/1853, born in Terreboune La.; also listed in 1910 census in Spokane Wash., another census San Francisco, Ca; @ 30 yrs old, listed in marriage index as having married Margaret Smith, 23 yrs old, 12/6/1883;
  • Fredrick Himmel,
  • John Edward Himmel, 1859
  • Harriet Alvina Himmel Edmondmon (Momie Frances' mother] 7/27/1869 - 1/11/1948 [78yrs] born in New Orleans, Louisiana; must have been 8 years old when father died.
    Homesteaded in Tucson Ariz, 2625 E. 1st St.;
-----------------------

1961 - grandmother contacted ----- great nieces. They are named Yvonne and Bertha. They live in New Orleans


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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11520
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 11-16-2005 01:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ADOLPHE HIMMEL examples

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Marc

Posts: 414
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 11-23-2005 12:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi guys..

As someone who has handled a little bit of 19th century silver exported from France, I can say that the spoon is French. Some of the silver I see when I do appraisals, has an export mark only, and some has just the minerva head with the countermark.

We would think that the French in France, would want to sell silver to the French derived folks in New Orleans, and what better way to do it than through the largest comercial silver dealer in the area.

But.. there are alwys slick charactors who try, and sometimes succeed in making a quick buck at someone elses expense, and with electroplating just getting its good start, who knows what happened.

Marc

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Patrick Vyvyan

Posts: 640
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 11-23-2005 06:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick Vyvyan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
See this thread: Small French cup - Part 1
Especially Blakstone's wonderful micro-photographic comparisons!

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bascall

Posts: 1629
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 05-28-2008 10:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brent:
On the opposite side of the handle is the "cloth mark" you often see on French flatware.

My understanding from reading Tardy's is that the impression on the back side of the French silver quality marks is from the anvil that the object being marked rested on when the punch was used, but maybe we're both saying the same thing with different words. No doubt you know better.

As most probably know well too, French and other imported silver with added retailers marks were not terribly uncommon in New Orleans during the nineteenth century.

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