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American Silver before sterling Hyde & Goodrich
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Author | Topic: Hyde & Goodrich |
Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 09-02-1999 10:19 PM
As I understand it, then general consensus is that Hyde and Goodrich of New Orleans were not silversmiths, but retailers and importers. I have a spoon that poses an interesting question for me (It may have already been hashed out by someone, but I haven't seen it) Anyway, my spoon has the Hyde & Goodrich intaglio mark, but it also has what appears to be a French .950 standard mark (Head of Minerva in an Octagon). On the opposite side of the handle is the "cloth mark" you often see on French flatware. In addition, the spoon's fiddle pattern is very rounded, in the French style. My question is this: Is this a French spoon marked by Hyde & Goodrich, or a spoon of local manufacture made to look like a French spoon? The standard mark is slightly crude, and it is missing the numeral 1 which usually appears to the right of the head. Has anyone researched this question before? I would appreciate any input. Thanks a lot! IP: Logged |
Ted Posts: 17 |
posted 09-07-1999 11:55 AM
An interesting question about Hyde & Goodrich. I am in agreement that Hyde & Goodrich were mainly retailers. This grows somewhat murky when it is realized that Hyde & Goodrich formed an association with Christoph Christian Kuchler And Adolphe Himmel in New Orleans. We don't know whether Hyde & Goodrich were instrumental in bringing these two Germans to N.O. or whether the association was made after they arrived. But it is thought that by 1853 Himmel was manufacturing holloware exclusively for Hyde & Goodrich. I wonder what the financial arrangements were, because during this time Hyde & Goodrich marked some items "manufacturers". There seems to be no evidence of flatware being made in this relationship. This brings us to your piece of flatware. Hyde & Goodrich was a large dominant firm in N.O. and it can be assumed that they were importers. There are several pieces of "Paris" porcelain marked by N.O. retailers so it stands to reason that silver was also imported from France. With their prominence in N.O., I see no reason they would copy French marks on silver. It seems to me that the more likely case would be that they imported this piece and affixed their mark, as was the custom. So, I think it likely that your piece was imported. Bear in mind, much of this is supposition. Ted Stickney ------------------ IP: Logged |
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 09-07-1999 01:01 PM
Belton indicates that H&G was listed in directories as 'Manufactures' as early as 1816. Later billheads and adverts are worded "Importers and sellers of fancy goods, etc" This around the time they actually started marking items 'Manufacturer.' The company is certainly ripe for further study. I agree with Ted's idea about importation of French goods, but would not be surprised if they used a pseudo-French hallmark to appeal to the tastes and demands of a New Orleans clientele. They seem to have carried a wide and varied assortment of goods. I understand that various uniform buttons they offered prior to and during the Civil War are highly sought after. I have a pair of sugar tongs in olive pattern with the most detailed claw ends I have ever seen. They are marked 'Hyde & Goodrich' incuse on each arm. The interesting bit is that they are also scratch marked '2 oz/61 dwt/1823' which would, if it is to be believed, indicate a very early date for this pattern. IP: Logged |
Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 09-07-1999 10:25 PM
I did see a lecture on the furniture trade in New Orleans, where it was revealed that many furniture retailers listed themselves as manufacturers when they were nothing of the sort. Based on that evidence, I would have to question any "Manufacturer" claims from New Orleans firms. Just thought I would pass that along. Thanks for the input! IP: Logged |
Ted Posts: 17 |
posted 09-08-1999 10:04 AM
I think all this is true but I think we sometimes get a little too conspiracy minded about this. It was perfectly normal and the accepted practice to sign silver that was retailed. It was not meant to deceive. According to "Crescent City Silver" published by "The Historic New Orleans Collection" James Nevin Hyde who died in New Orleans in 1838: "In all probibility, James Nevin Hyde was the only partner of Hyde & Goodrich who was a silversmith. His ability appears to have been limited to spectacles and spoons. While in partnership with Nevins, he is known to have retailed hollowware by William B. Heyer of New York." The important thing is that you have a rare piece of N.O. Silver whether it was made or imported. IP: Logged |
Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 09-08-1999 07:08 PM
Thanks! I was wondering if anyone had seen other pieces marked in this fashion, which might serve to tip the scales one way or the other. IP: Logged |
Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 08-29-2001 10:51 PM
Here is another long-overdue picture post. Note the shape of the spoon; this style is very much in the French taste. On the top of the handle you can see the "cloth mark" or counterstrike, opposite the Minerva head on the back. Vintage French flatware usually has these marks. The head of Minerva in this shape surround signifies the French first standard, or 950/1000 pure silver. This particular stamp looks a little fishy to me, but the cloth mark certainly looks genuine. I showed this to the proprietors of the As You Like It Silver Shop in New Orleans, and they pronounced it a French piece. I figure they should know! At any rate, an interesting piece of flatware! Brent IP: Logged |
Barbara unregistered |
posted 09-07-2001 08:26 AM
So maybe test to see if the spoon is 950/1000. If it is not, you will know that the Minerva is indeed fishy and that the spoon is likely American-made (assuming that it tests around 900/1000). IP: Logged |
GDGardner unregistered |
posted 01-20-2002 05:46 PM
The Minerva head would not have been a widely recognized pseudo hallmark for an American manufacturer to have used, even one in New Orleans catering to a Creole, French loving consumer base. H&G imported silver directly from France, as they did porcelains and clocks that have their retailers name. H&G utilized the term "importers" in their logo for many years, yet they referenced their local New Orleans factory by 1857. IP: Logged |
akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 01-21-2002 03:04 PM
That Minerve mark certainly doesn't look kosher to me ... and French hallmarks were so strictly regulated that there should not have been much leeway. Also, French silver was required to bear a maker's mark in a lozenge, and there's no sign of one on this spoon (nor does the "Hyde & Goodrich" mark seem to be overstriking one. Indeed, if the spoon were a legal export from France it would have to bear not the Minerve mark but the head of Mercury, a very different mark. Also, the spoon does not appear to be of true French manufacture -- certainly not Parisian, the likeliest candidate for export. The bowl, especially, is the wrong shape and appears too thin. I'd bet a silver teaspoon that this was made in New Orleans by H&G or someone working for them, copying a genuine French spoon. The only question is why .... Maybe it was a replacement piece, but in that case why the trouble to copy the mark, too? A very interesting artifact anyhow. IP: Logged |
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-21-2002 03:30 PM
Or it was simply bought in with other old silver by Hyde & Goodrich, marked with their name, and re-sold -- a not uncommon occurrence when silver was short or there was a good profit to be had. And the French were as lax about full marks on sets as the English, though I admit the mark looks a bit fishy to me as well. [This message has been edited by wev (edited 01-21-2002).] IP: Logged |
GDGardner unregistered |
posted 01-23-2002 09:46 PM
The form of the spoon is not correct for local manufacture, either. It more closely resembles Austro-German styling from mid-century, and certainly is too crude for Parisian silver. Possibly made elsewhere in central/western Europe and wholesaled by a French distributor to H&G. It would account for the lack of a maker's mark. Did the French require an export mark for silver NOT made in France? I really don't know, but would guess they didn't. IP: Logged |
Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 01-25-2002 01:30 PM
As keeper of the spoon, here is my take on all of these interesting theories. 1.) As you say, the spoon is of lighter gauge than one would expect from a French maker. 2.) The Minerve head does look wrong, even in a worn condition as it is. Also, there should be a numeral 1 to the side of the head to denote the first standard, and it is NOT present. Right now, as I was in the beginning, I am leaning towards a conclusion that this is not a French-made spoon. The possibility that this was made elsewhere in Europe and wholesaled through a French middleman is intriguing. The form, though, looks more French to me than middle-European. Thank you for all of your input and expertise! Brent IP: Logged |
akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 01-25-2002 11:36 PM
I was about to point that spoon out, but eagle-eyed wev beat me to it. That one's definitely not French .... no Minerve in sight. As for Mr Gardner's question .... yes, the French required proper hallmarks for *everything*. They were even stricter on this than the British, especially post-1800. IP: Logged |
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 11-14-2005 11:18 AM
more info on Adolphe Himmel:
quote: IP: Logged |
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 11-16-2005 01:06 PM
ADOLPHE HIMMEL examples
IP: Logged |
Marc Posts: 414 |
posted 11-23-2005 12:31 AM
Hi guys.. As someone who has handled a little bit of 19th century silver exported from France, I can say that the spoon is French. Some of the silver I see when I do appraisals, has an export mark only, and some has just the minerva head with the countermark. We would think that the French in France, would want to sell silver to the French derived folks in New Orleans, and what better way to do it than through the largest comercial silver dealer in the area. But.. there are alwys slick charactors who try, and sometimes succeed in making a quick buck at someone elses expense, and with electroplating just getting its good start, who knows what happened. Marc IP: Logged |
Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 |
posted 11-23-2005 06:38 PM
See this thread: Small French cup - Part 1 Especially Blakstone's wonderful micro-photographic comparisons! IP: Logged |
bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 05-28-2008 10:39 PM
quote: My understanding from reading Tardy's is that the impression on the back side of the French silver quality marks is from the anvil that the object being marked rested on when the punch was used, but maybe we're both saying the same thing with different words. No doubt you know better. As most probably know well too, French and other imported silver with added retailers marks were not terribly uncommon in New Orleans during the nineteenth century. IP: Logged |
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