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Author Topic:   Little Silver Treasure
Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 04-01-2000 11:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote


Here are some pictures of one of my favorite pieces, courtesy of our esteemed site host. This spoon by Daniel Dupuy, Sr. of Philadelphia, appears to have been made as a child's toy. It looks very much like an adult tablespoon of the period (late 1750's to 1770's), but as you can see it is very small, and at 3 1/4 inches long it is smaller in fact than any teaspoon of the period. Fiddle pattern toy spoons are illustrated in Martha Gandy Fales' "Early American Silver for the Cautious Collector", but I have never seen another of this age and style. There is a possibility that this is a snuff or salt spoon. However, snuff spoons often have even smaller bowls, and salt spoons tend to be shell shaped. At any rate, spoons of this size are a rarity in American silver, even in the fiddle pattern. I would love to see any other toy spoons that our readers may have.

Speaking of small treasures, check out the Silver Stories forum to see picture of our new son modelling the spoon for me.

[This message has been edited by Brent (edited 04-01-2000).]

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Bob Schulhof

Posts: 194
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 04-05-2000 12:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Schulhof     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That doesn't look like fiddle to me. It looks like Hanovarian which was the popular pattern in the 18th century. Fiddle was more 19th cent. Makes this piece even a little more interesting.

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acceb
unregistered
iconnumber posted 04-05-2000 08:03 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A very charming, and rare, small spoon by Dupuy. Any history on the piece upon its arrival?

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Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 04-06-2000 05:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I didn't mean to imply that this was a fiddle pattern spoon, only that the toy spoons illustrated in the Fales book were fiddle pattern. This is definitely a mid-18th century, Hanoverian pattern spoon.

As to the history of this spoon, the dealer did not supply any. On the other hand, this little spoon does have some later scratch engraving. On the back of the bowl is scratched what appears to be the name Colen Rodney Hamman, or something similar, and the date 1849. 1849 is also scratched on the front of the handle. I am not absolutely certain of the name, except for the Rodney. The last name may be Harmon, Harman or something else; it is not clear.

The engraved initials on the piece, CRH, are almost certainly original. Other known Dupuy spoons have this same crude block engraving. The scratched name is also a CRH, but I'm sure that was added in 1849. Perhaps the spoon was handed down to a descendant of the original owner (with the same initials) in 1849. On the other hand, perhaps the original owner died in 1849, and the inscription was made as a memorial. It makes for fascinating suppositions! What do you think is the real story?

If I see the dealer again, I will ask if remembers where this came from.


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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 04-06-2000 10:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I recently aquired a small (childs?) spoon by Elias Pelletreau that is very close in form to yours, though it has a rat tail drop rather than the shell. It is a bare 4 inches, but the bowl has been re-worked and appears longer than originally made. I will get a scan done of it and several other child's pieces I have on the morrow.

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 04-07-2000 03:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here are a pair of child's spoons. The top is by Nathaniel Monroe (mark: N • MONROE in a serrated cartouche). The lower is by Elias Pelletreau (see third scan for mark). As can be seen the original bowl has been re-worked and is now rather longer than it should be and razor thin at the outside edge. Both measure a bare 3 7/8".

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 04-07-2000 05:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I managed to come up with a few more peices -- I really have to get more organized. The top is a nice example of a 'make-do.' Originally a standard teaspoon by Wyer & Farley, it has been shortened up to serve as a baby spoon, child's spoon, or perhaps a sugar. The bottom pair are unmarked, but of lovely quality. They are quite heavily made - the high arched neck is nearly an 3/32" thick. They measure right at 3 5/8" long and I think the proportions quite pleasing. Anyone have a guess as to age?

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Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 04-07-2000 09:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great to see so many children's spoons. Your Pelletreau spoon is pretty similar, and probably a bit older than mine. I have a few more myself that I will try to post at a later date.

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FredZ

Posts: 1070
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 06-01-2000 04:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FredZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have never even considered theses spoons as being child spoons only as being small spoons for tea. I have several in my collection. one rather damaged Jacob Hurd spoon, one by an "IL" smith, two by Samuel Burt, and two by Joseph Moulton. I do own a rather small ratail hanovarian spoon not more than 2.5 inches marked "EB" in an oval and have wishfull thoughts that it could be by the the mint master Mr. Brasher. I have no access to a digital camera and can send no images. I have seen images of these diminuative spoons in a few English books and they describe them as snuff spons. Anyone seen a preview of the New York book of Silver in the New York museum...sorry I have forgotten the title. I am scheduled to receive a copy when it is published. I hope the images are full and not outline cut as was done in the Quimby book on the Winturthur Collection.

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Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 06-05-2000 03:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Early teaspoons certainly are very small, but I think these even smaller spoons do definitely fall into a different category. I have also encountered the snuff spoon explanation, but I have a few problems with this.

1.) There are tiny 19th century spoons that are definitely made for children. I think that there would be some precedent for these pieces.

2.) The spoons are very small, but they would still hold an awful lot of snuff! Maybe if you were Jimmy Durante... Anyway, actual snuff spoons that you find in etuis and on chatelaines have very tiny bowls, like a McDonalds swizzle stick.

3.) I have seen these English spoons in sets. Why would anyone need an engraved set of snuff spoons?

Anyway, that is why I still think these were made for children. They might be salt spoons, but I have always heard that early salt spoons had a shell shape, rather than appearing as miniature tablespoons.

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FredZ

Posts: 1070
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 06-15-2000 01:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FredZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Brent, I have gone home and remeasured my mid 18th Century spoons and they are the larger 4+ inch variety. Your's is a size I have never come across before and I would tend to agree that it was for a wealth child to play with. I love this forum and hope to one day be able to post images on it as well. What a lovely way to share info and the delight of a well made piece of silver. I am a silversmith and I collect as a means to both learn and to teach. I look at the telltale imperfections in the craftsmanship to help me understand how a piece was made. I smile when I see these for they give me a better clue to the man/woman who made these items. The design of an item is often determined by the response of the material being forged.
Enough rambling.... When I get a digital camera I will share images as well.... I have a wonderful hoof spoon I would like to have commented on.

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roy

Posts: 5
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 06-27-2000 06:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for roy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
smalls are very interesting. have a set of 6 spoons 3 1/4" L. by sam'l richards, phila.
c.1790-95 rounded end, bird on back of bowl. engraved front, top of handle in block letters ED
to
AD

another spoon: 3 1/2"L.;handle tipped back(1/2"l. rib at handle top on underside);bowl 3/4"L by 7/16"W. Snuff spoon? the bowl has a fair amount of corrosion.

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 06-27-2000 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome aboard Roy! Any chance of a scan of the Richards spoons? I would like to add one to my files. have never seen bird backs that size; very tasty.

[This message has been edited by wev (edited 06-27-2000).]

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Paul Lemieux

Posts: 1792
Registered: Apr 2000

iconnumber posted 09-27-2002 06:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's another tiny piece. It's only 3 7/8", but not signed. It has a sort of coffin end, and a rather wimpy engraved "V" drop, which I haven't seen before. The proportions and shape (particularly the bowl) of this spoon differ from other examples posted here. Sadly, it's unsigned.

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labarbedor

Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 09-30-2002 04:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for labarbedor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I guess I might as well weigh in with an opinion. The first category is probably what I would call "toy" spoons. This would include the Fales spoons, (I have the rest of the set, not pictured). These are tiny, usually less than 2 inches. I have another set by G. Spence, which are a little larger and come with a pair of tongs. (I am sorry I won't be able to get pictures or sizes for a while, but I will eventually post them.) The fact that these come with small tongs, rules out a set of salt spoons, etc. The next category would be the snuff spoon. These are also very small and were only a fad, usually before 1730. I have had a few in etui sets, but they are very small. The third category would be salt spoons. These started out as shovels, and later became shells or other shapes. These shapes usually lent themselves to being shoved directly into and scooping up salt, which explains the earlier shape. At some point, (when?) salt spoons where made in the same shape as a regular spoon. These are quite common in Missouri by 1850. It seems reasonably certain these pointed bowl spoons were salts, since they are usually found in pairs and have exactly the same size handles as more conventionally shaped salt spoons by the same maker. That makes me think that spoons under 3" even if 18th century were probably salt spoons. They are far more common in England (as were salts) than in America.

That leaves these rather troubling size of 3-4". If normally proportioned and 18th century I would say they are just small spoons. Tea was very expensive until 1788 and cups were very small. Also with the huge infant mortality rate, I can't see a parent even a doting one having silver engraved with a child's initials. People just didn't expect all children to live and their deaths were treated differently. At this period children had dolls and their dolls had "toy" spoons not 3 1/4" spoons. Think if you can remember seeing an 18th century child's china set bigger than a toy set? In France the first silver a child received was probably the fork spoon and cup he received when leaving for school.

After the turn of the century things changed, child's sets were more common. Children were expected to live. And the Victorian cult of the child was around the corner. I don't doubt that short handled spoons with nearly normal sized bowls were probably child's spoons especially if after 1800.


------------------
Maurice

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 03-02-2014 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I found a cute little miniature spoon yesterday, just 3 inches long. What do you think, silver friends--toy? salt? snuff? tea? etui?

(There are a few threads on the board about these mini spoons; I chose this one to add to rather than start a new one.)

My little cutie has an oval bowl with a drop and a plain, rounded end, neither turned up nor turned down. No ridge. Traces of gilding on the whole spoon (not just the bowl). Looks c. 1780-1810 to me (anyone disagree?).

No marks anywhere (so I don't know for sure that it's American).


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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 03-02-2014 12:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very pretty. The slim proportions lead me to guess etui, but that still begs the question: what was the spoon in an etui actually used for?

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 03-02-2014 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Eating quail eggs?

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 03-02-2014 05:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With a gold wash the owner may have used it for caviar.
For a spoon in an etui it may be earlier than 1780.

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 03-02-2014 06:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Again I'm filled with sorrow at not having that superpower we all discussed in some thread a year or two back: to be able to look at any object and know its entire history.

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