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tline3open  Marks to watch out for!

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Author Topic:   Marks to watch out for!
Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 10-17-2001 11:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

If you are serious about collecting coin silver, eventually you will run across some pieces with marks that look like coin silver ...but are they? Here are two sets of marks found on non-descript "fiddle-with-fins" style teaspoons, both sold to me as coin silver. What do you think they are? HINT: If you have the right reference books, you can identify both marks, and even the makers' names. If you don't, though, the task is a bit tougher. Who can tell me what these mean? (Not you, WEV)

Brent

[This message has been edited by Brent (edited 10-17-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Brent (edited 10-17-2001).]

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Martine

Posts: 55
Registered: Jul 2001

iconnumber posted 10-24-2001 05:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Martine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well the top marks are easy for me. China trade silver in the Western taste with pseudo marks. Maker - Wongshing. I will have to think a bit about your second set of marks.

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melissa
unregistered
iconnumber posted 10-24-2001 08:29 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I knew the second right away, but the first stumped me. Elgin Scotland, the maker Thomas Stewart. Martine & I make a formidable pair, don't mess with us!

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Martine

Posts: 55
Registered: Jul 2001

iconnumber posted 10-24-2001 06:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Martine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
On the second set of marks, I was thinking something Provincial, but at 5:30 in the morning, I didn't feel like cracking open the books! Silver chicks rule!!!!

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akgdc

Posts: 289
Registered: Sep 2001

iconnumber posted 10-24-2001 08:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for akgdc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow ..... you go, girls!

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Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 10-31-2001 09:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Please forgive my tardy reply. You are, of course, both correct. Thank you for your participation!

For those readers who may not be so familiar with these marks, please note that the Chinese export marks try very hard to emulate English hallmarks, but fail miserably. We have a "sovereign's head", or duty mark, a "crowned Leopard's Head", a "date letter" and a "lion passant". The styles are completely wrong, though. The sovereign and the Leopard both have "oriental" features, and the lion looks more like a dog. The shape of the W "date letter" surround is also wrong for English marks. In fact, it is a maker's mark for Wong Zheng of Canton, active 1830-1855.

As for the second mark, it behooves us all to learn to recognize Scottish provincial marks. They can be easily confused with American pseudo-hallmarks if you do not know what to look for. Learning the stylistic quirks of Scottish silver is also useful, as quite a lot of Scottish silver bears only a maker's mark.

As an aside, did anyone notice that the TS mark is an overstrike?

Anyway, here are three more pieces with mystery marks. The first is easy, the second a bit more difficult, and the third the hardest of all. Good luck!



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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 10-31-2001 09:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And the volley is returned! Lovely!

Ladies?

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Melissa
unregistered
iconnumber posted 11-01-2001 09:41 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
oh, you men! Let's see, we have Peter Nordebeck of Halifax, Nova Scotia represented by the first mark. I am not sure of the initials on number 2, but I do not believe I've ever seen those particular marks. Number three? hmmmm, style and engraving looks American, but I am stumped.

Martine? Help me out here, please!

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Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 11-01-2001 01:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Right on number one!

The initials for number two are BB, not RB.

Brent

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Martine

Posts: 55
Registered: Jul 2001

iconnumber posted 11-02-2001 05:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Martine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The lion passant and crowned leopard head on number two look like c.1800 Chester marks. Sorry, I am really swamped with work this week. I need some incentive Brent. I think that if Melissa and I can identify the marks... we should get the spoons!!! Anyway, my bread and butter is really American Victorian period silver, though this week on eBay I did fairly well with some Bradbury Sheaf of Wheat premium spoons.

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Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 11-22-2001 02:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A long overdue reply! The first mark in this second group is indeed that of Peter Nordbeck of Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. The H, instead of being a date letter, stands for Halifax instead. These marks are quite English at first glance, but the "sovereign's head" is wrong, and the entire grouping fails to ring true.

Mark number 2 is still a bit of a mystery. The lion passant and crowned leopard's head appear on known pieces of Canadian silver, and there is a maker who used the BB stamp, but the three marks are not recorded together. Still, I feel comfortable that this is also a Canadian spoon. It is quite heavy as well, which tends to suggest an English influence. Those of you who own Bohan & Hammerslough's book of Early Connecticut Silver will note a spoon of identical form marked B. Benjamin, for Barzillai Benjamin of New Haven. Benjamin also had a BB stamp, but was not known to have used pseudohallmarks like these.

Fianlly, number three is actually a piece of Channel Islands silver. The maker is unfortunately unidentified, but worked on Guernsey in the mid 1700's. The fleur-de-lis marks were used by some Scottish provincial silversmiths as well, so do not assume that all marks of this type are Channel Islands. Unusual initials are one clue to Channel Islands origins, and these, "EUS", are no exception.

Well done!

Brent

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Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 11-26-2001 08:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Ok, here is a real stumper. I can honestly say that I have no idea where this piece comes from. The spoon is obviously late 18th-early 19th century and very heavy. To me, the style and typically English monogram suggest an English or English colonial origin. My first thought when I saw it was Scottish provincial or Channel Islands, but Jackson and Mayne have let me down. Any ideas? West Indies/Bermuda, Cape Town, Australia and New Zealand are all possibilities, but I do not have the references to check out them out. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Brent

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 11-26-2001 09:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So that was you, eh? I missed the close...

I confess I scoured the books and came up blank as well. I sure hope someone has the answer.

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