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tline3open  spoons on eBay

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Author Topic:   spoons on eBay
akgdc

Posts: 289
Registered: Sep 2001

iconnumber posted 06-17-2002 01:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for akgdc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just curious what all you American silver experts think of these unusual spoons that sold on eBay over the weekend (882813961):
quote:
Offered is a set of sterling silver or coin silver trefid teaspoons I purchased a while back from the well known early silver dealers, Schredds of Portobello, in London. Both they and I have done a lot of research on these spoons and have been able to uncover very little. We agree that they are likely Northern European with some possibility of being American. The mark on these spoons is very similar to the maker's marks of Henricus Boelen I and II. (See Belden for the marks of the Boelens). However, the age of these spoons is a matter of disagreement between us. While the experts at Schredds feel these are typical of those late 17th century provincial makers who did not use rattails in their teaspoons, I feel that the heel on these spoons points toward a date in the first quarter of the 18th century. The spoons could very well have been made to match early tablespoons. However, no one has been able to tell for sure. I cannot guarantee their age or origin, as I am just not expert enough. I can tell you that they are solid silver and are completely handmade (each spoon varies slightly in size, and the engraved decoration varies from spoon to spoon (same basic design, but when hand decorating the execution of the design varies). Each spoon has block owner's initials MB to the reverse. The bowls also vary slightly in thickness and some have slight tip wear, although nothing notable. Condition is very good on these spoons, although one does have an early repair (probably by the silversmith) to the handle or stem. This was done in matching grade silver and so is very hard to notice. These spoons vary slightly in length but on the whole measure about four and five eighths inches. The maker's mark or hallmark is a conjoined HB or possibly an IB. I have included sixteen pictures for the experts out there to evaluate, since I cannot guarantee the age or origin of these spoons, and can only offer the opinion of Schredds. This is why I am starting the auction at a very low price (much, much less than I paid). If these are 17th century the buyer will have a steal, if they are American he or she can retire. Even early 18th century would be a steal here!

(click on image to enlarge)



My first assumption was that they were Dutch. But the decoration on them looks uncannily similar to that on a spoon and fork by John Coney, c. 1700, in Fales's Early American Silver, fig. 54.

No, I didn't bid on them, by the way.

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FredZ

Posts: 1070
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 06-17-2002 05:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FredZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These are wonderful spoons. I do not recognize the mark as that of any of the known marks for Boelen. The crossbar on the H does not extend behond the H in your spoons. My guess is that they are Dutch or fine forgeries of Boelen's work. I would love to own an example as fine as these.

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 06-17-2002 08:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I also saw these on ebay and my first and continuing impression is that they don't ring true. As Fred points out, the mark is sort of Boelen, but not a match. More to the point, the mark varies considerably from one to the other and the differences don't appear to be the result of wear or a mis-strike. And the overall design seems cobbled together from design details spanning the decades from 1690 to 1730. The bowls seem too small, not in scale to the handles or the size and weight of the drops (which seem remarkably well preserved for their high profile). Their shape and proportions certainly seem of a later generation. And I find the "late 17th century provincial maker" a somewhat dubious explanation for the style of drop (which is really quite sophisticated) and the lack of rattail, as did the seller apparently. The engraving, whatever the source, does look like quality work, cut with assurance and nicely fitted to the available space. All in all, attractive, but not very well thought out imitations.

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Paul Lemieux

Posts: 1792
Registered: Apr 2000

iconnumber posted 06-18-2002 10:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Now I know I have seen this set on eBay before, offered by the same seller. It was several months ago, and I am pretty certain the set sold back then. Which means the seller either started out with twelve or more of the spoons, or they were returned. I do not think they are legitimate either.

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akgdc

Posts: 289
Registered: Sep 2001

iconnumber posted 06-18-2002 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for akgdc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting opinions. Strangest of all is what WEV points out, that the marks vary from one spoon to another.

I do think the seller presented them honestly, however.

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11520
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 06-18-2002 03:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
X-Ray Fluorescence Analysis could reveal whether these are as old as represented.
Here is the X-Ray Fluorescence Analysis page from our publication, The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects :

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Paul Lemieux

Posts: 1792
Registered: Apr 2000

iconnumber posted 06-19-2002 11:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If my memory is correct, and these spoons did sell once before, then my guess is the buyer found them to be unsatisfactory in some way, and now the seller is trying to sell them again. Perhaps the repair was not noticed the first time around. I agree they are NOT being presented dishonestly. (Sorry--I had originally posted this and forgot the word "not"!!)

[This message has been edited by Paul Lemieux (edited 06-19-2002).]

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akgdc

Posts: 289
Registered: Sep 2001

iconnumber posted 06-19-2002 12:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for akgdc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know this seller and he is an honest, knowledgable fellow who sells a lot of good silver at fair prices on eBay, and always tells as much as he knows in the listings. I haven't asked him about these spoons, but will do so and find out whether they sold before.

I really don't know how you can accuse him of dishonesty.

His description and photos are exhaustively complete (he even tells where he bought them, which few dealers ever would -- especially since their origin in England makes it less likely they'd be American), and finally he admits that he is not enough of an expert to guarantee their age or origins. He started the bidding at a low price with no reserve and let the market decide.

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FredZ

Posts: 1070
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 06-19-2002 07:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FredZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't believe there is an attempt of deception... I personaly would love to own one of these spoons to add to my collection even if it is a forgery. The engraving is spectacular and they appear to be well made. I think the listing is fairly honestly stated and I would be interested to see what the market place thinks of them. I look at things from the eye of a craftsman.

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