posted 05-14-2003 03:02 PM              

I've been looking for a British Georgian and corresponding American period flatware discussion group, and luckily stumbled across this site when searching "Hanoverian spoon" on the Yahoo search engine. I have recently acquired an American fiddle pattern 13" coin silver soup ladle, approx. 6 oz., and would like to try to attribute it (I know, GOOD LUCK!!!). Here are the pics:

There are no maker's or retailer's marks at all, it's completely unmarked except for the mono. It is collared, and there is no protruding drop at the base of the stem. I realize that "everyone and a dog" has made the general pattern, and so this may likely be a fruitless search. A cursory review has identified similar style ladles by J. Shoemaker and R&H (Phila.), B.H. Tisdale (Providence, R.I), and Chas. Gennett (Richmond, VA), primarily in the long "paddle" portion of the handle with nearly parallel sides (and no drop in the last example).

There may indeed be a Southern connection, in that a gravy ladle recently sold on Ebay (#2524014335) with a nearly identical mono, same initials, same style, very possibly by the same hand at about the same time. Here's a pic of the matching mono on the W.GREGG marked gravy ladle:

I realize that trying to identify engravers is even more thankless than trying to attribute unmarked FP ladles! And it doesn't appear by style that Gregg made my unmarked ladle. But in view of the mono connection, perhaps my soup ladle was bought locally from another maker in the same vicinity as Gregg. Unfortunately, it appears that Gregg worked in about four different cities, one of them in the North, and so for the mono to help, I should know when/where Gregg made the gravy ladle with the matching mono. Dead end?

Anyway, perhaps a good mystery for those inclined. Any info would be appreciated, either specific to this piece, or in general (such as a good text on early coin silver flatware styles?). Thanks!

Oh, by the way, I'm using the Inkfrog server to post the images, and so they are supposed to disappear in ten days (5/24/03). Again, TIA for any and all help!!!

posted 05-14-2003 10:44 PM            

I think, at best, all that can be done is note the second piece in your records for now and see else may turn up.

ps: I have loaded your images to my server, so they will remain with the post.

posted 05-15-2003 09:05 AM            

My immediate reaction to this ladle is that it is KY. The long straight part of the handle is usually associated with Ky, OH, & Mo ladles. The differences are often so subtle, recognizing a state of origin, is more of an art than a science. It is especially difficult from a picture.

Wm. Greg apprenticed in Lexington, KY at the same approximate date of your ladle. I don't know if he produced any silver there and don't have any examples in my files. Now that digital photography makes taking pictures so simple perhaps we will see more attributions by engraving.

posted 05-15-2003 02:21 PM              

a. Begin a stylistic search of all American silversmiths of the era, or
b. Begin a search of all Southern smiths, or
c. Search all smiths working in all the towns in which W. Gregg was known to work, or
d. Search the smiths working in or near the town in which Gregg likely made the ladle with the matching engraving.

posted 05-16-2003 03:41 AM            

You are right to consider the engraving - a number of years ago I published a tentative attribution of an IW mark to Isaac Woodcock based in large part on engraving - an attribution for which I have since found further substantiation, so I would never discount it. I think that in this case the engraving may be your best lead, again provided that it is original to both pieces - unfortunately the ebay page for the signed ladle is no longer available for inspection(I probably saw it, but I have little or no recollection of how closely it might have resembled your ladle in shape and proportion, butif it were stylistically out of place I might have noticed and remembered). If you saved a printout, you might try contacting the buyer about any possible removals - for all I can tell from your photos, I see no obvious signs of removals of earlier initials. The reason this engraving is potentially useful is that it is rather atypical of the style which most engravers of the period followed - there is none of the customary feathering, the joining of the C and P is unusual, and even the formation of the P seems a bit off. Clearly, the two are by the same hand. My impression is that, even though the strokes seem strong and sure (not amateurish), the engraver may have been unfamiliar with the prevailing style and/or, if contemporary, did not have access to the style book(s) that were commonly relied upon for examples to copy (hence Virginia for a beginner, rather than South Carolina by which time he had more experience). Nonetheless, it might be productive to search for other examples of Gregg's work to compare - I can make nothing of the engraving from the illustrated spoons in Burton and Ripley (South Carolina Silversmiths). Parenthetically, I have also examined several examples of Asa Blanchard's work, plus photos in Boultinghouse (Kentucky Silversmiths) and find no similarity to that on yours - most of Blanchard's products carry the conventional form, albeit with the feathering often somewhat on the sparse side.

One would think an apprentice would learn from his master how to "do it right."

There are several possible reasons for a piece being unsigned, and your suggestion of a different maker may not be off the mark - trade pieces were ofter supplied to other silversmiths for retailing and may not have been marked by the seller, so that there still could have been a common source for the purchaser of both pieces (again, this requires originality of the engraving).

Then, again . . . . If the engraving is not original, then all bets are off, and the two may have no relation other than common ownership at some later time.

As I said, this is a knotty problem, and maybe we are making more of this than we should. As you are finding out (if you didn't already know it) there are often more questions than answers in American silver (and you did ask a few yourself), so don't let all the conflicting advice and lack of hard information discourage you - look on it as a challenge rather than a constant stream of frustrations. So, if you have other irons in the fire, you might want to take the moderator's advice and not spend too much time worrying this bone -- just bury it and dig it up again later.

posted 05-16-2003 11:53 PM              

quote:

---

Southern Coin Silver Ladle by William Gregg
We are pleased to offer this coin silver ladle by one of the first southern industrialists. Born in Virginia in 1800, Gregg began his career as a silversmith. Trained and working in Virginia, Kentucky, and South Carolina. Current research indicates that this ladle was made between 1824 & 1834 while he was working in Columbia, South Carolina. After moving to Charleston in 838, He resumed his silversmithing and eventually opened and ran a cotton mill that supplied the Confederacy with cloth during the Civil War. Don't miss the opportunity to own this rare example of Southern Silver.

DESCRIPTION:

• Ladle measures 6" in length with deep 1 5/8" diameter bowl
  
• Monogrammed in script CM to RT
  
• Marked W. GREGG in serrated box.
  
• The metal surface shows appropriate wear and scratches consistent with it's age and loving use. The handle is down turned and tipped in the back, the bowl has a swagged rounded drop. A finely hand wrought example of early 19th Century silversmithing.

---

Rick

posted 05-17-2003 02:13 AM              

quote:

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SOUTHERN Coin Silver GRAVY LADLE (W. Gregg)
This is a rare coin silver gravy ladle that was made circa 1818 to 1830 by William Gregg of Lexington, Kentucky, Petersburg, Virginia and, later, Columbia, South Carolina and Charleston, South Carolina. This ladle is 7-7/16" long and has a wide 2-5/8" oval bowl with a broad drop and a down turned fiddle tipt handle. It a script monogram HP on the front and is clearly marked on the back of the handle W.GREGG in a serrated rectangular punch. This ladle is in very good condition with no dents or repairs. Coin silver items by William Gregg are extremely rare and are always very collectible, and this fabulous ladle will make a terrific addition to any collection of early Southern coin silver!

---

But neither Gregg ladle appears to be a good stylistic match to mine, which sports a relatively long, narrow spatulate end of the handle with sides nearly parallel, connected by a relatively short narrow portion of the handle showing strong curvature at both ends of this section, plus rounded, chamfered collars at the base, and no drop. Definitely not in the mainstream of style. But who was the adventurist? Oh, well, I'm starting to chase my tail in circles now. What was that advice you gave me? Oh, yes, go out and bury the ladle and wait for something to pop up. Consider it done!!!

Rick

posted 05-18-2003 08:48 PM            

Earlier in the 19th Century there were a few idiosyncratic style variations that can be traced to one individual or family, and some regional specialties like the shield-shaped handles on spoons from the Louisville area, or the "double-swell fiddles" from New England, that are prettty well definitive, but most can only be given a percentage of chance to be tied to any particular location. What this can do is to point you in a particular direction so that you might know where you would have the best chance of finding a match for an unidentified mark with a name of a silversmith, but to find a home for an unmarked piece that could have been made in any number of places you would need provenence (a history of ownership), a healthy dose of intuition, or just pure dumb luck (like a match of an idiosyncratic engraving style).

I chose the Philadelphia piece for a reason, as it shows one reason why a style common in one place may be expected to be made somewhere else: A study of regional styles and transportation patterns in the early 19th Century shows that Philadelphia, before the advent of the railroads, was the ultimate source for southern and midwestern forms, which became more and more distinctive as they were carried from place to place with settlers migrating from Philadelphia either downcoast along the Atlantic, or west along the National Road and/or by canal ultimately into the midwest, or by way of Pittsburgh down the Ohio River, up the Missouri River, or down the Mississippi River through the South and ultimately the Gulf states.

After the railroads arrived, all bets were off, since importing from major industrial centers became more economical, and local silversmithing beame a thing of the past. So after about 1840 you can largely forget about the name of a local silversmith meaning he was anything but a retailer.

posted 05-19-2003 05:28 PM            

Rick

posted 05-19-2003 08:35 PM            

I have a question re spoon pattern development c.1800 or so in the US as opposed to Britain, relating to the development of the Fiddle (Oar) Pattern. Since I have beaten this board up enough, I posted it on the General Silver Forum. But Coinies likely have as much knowledge on this as do the Brit-o-philes. Take a look if at all interested.

posted 06-08-2003 09:52 PM            

AXF Shepherd, 1815, Kentucky

Robt. Frazier, Paris/Lexington, KY

Hmmmmmmmm, hmmmmmmm, hmmmmmm.

Rick