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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 American Silver before sterling
 Old Hanoverian Tsp. or ???
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| Author | Topic: Old Hanoverian Tsp. or ??? |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 05-28-2004 03:38 PM
  
[19-0423] Here is a small (11.4 cm, 4 1/2 in.), unmarked Hanoverian Pattern teaspoon with 11-lobed shell swage over single drop and crudely cut monogram, "HC": (Again, sorry, images are the best my flatbed scanner will produce.) The spoon is somewhat crudely made, with the lines a bit wonky (asymmetrical). The general shape looks good to me for a mid-18th century American Hanoverian Pattern, given the abrupt transition from the plain, rectangular cross-section stem to the mid-ridge finial section, with concave planes off the mid-ridge. The spoon has little wear (just a bit of tip curl, still has what appear to be the original planishing marks in the bowl). What is most noticeable are the numerous folds in the metal, one shown in the closeup above (not well shown, it is really much more discernible in person). In the area of Japanese swords, these folds are called "ware" (wahr-eh), irregular black lines where the folded steel did not properly forge weld to itself. So it appears that this spoon was made from a sheet of silver hand rolled from an ingot, which sheet was not properly smoothed and finished prior to fashioning the spoon. So, does this impress anyone as a real period American teaspoon, or a more recent replica attempt? If the former, any guesses as to when/where it may have been made? I realize that trying to attribute unmarked American coin silver spoons is often near impossible, but this one, if original, would possibly be old enough to greatly simplify the task. IP: Logged |
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FredZ Posts: 1070 |
posted 05-28-2004 07:26 PM
I doubt if we could ever identify this as American made. The fold marks you describe on the stem of the spoon are created when the silver bar is hammered on the narrow axis to thicken it and make it narrow. The silversmith will normally file these off before finishing the spoon. Nice spoon! Fred IP: Logged |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 05-29-2004 01:51 AM
Thanks for the input, Fred. I have only shown one of the surface fold lines. As I implied, there are a bunch of them, actually about eight or so total, all over the spoon. They are everywhere, but generally parallel to the spoon long axis. The worst of them is just below the right outside bowl rim, which is about impossible to image on my scanner. I'm guessing an American origin due to the lack of hallmarks, plus the abrupt "splaying" out of the handle upper end section (Brit spoons of similar pattern and era seem to have more of a straight edge to the stem sides, also less concave and more edge thickness adjacent the upper end midridge). I could imagine this may have been a talented blacksmith special, were it not for the shell back, which I imagine is not likely to be in a blacksmith's repertoire, though it, like this rest of the spoon, is not terribly well formed. More thoughts? IP: Logged |
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FredZ Posts: 1070 |
posted 05-29-2004 09:55 PM
There is actually a connection between the swaged shell backed bowl and the blacksmith. It is probable that a blacksmith was involved in the making of the swage used to form the shell design on the bowl. The imperfections in items are valuable clues to manufacturing techniques used by the craftsman. Fred IP: Logged |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 06-02-2004 11:00 AM
Should I wish to pursue identifying the origin of this piece, is there an appropriate info source to contact? I have heard of the Winterthur Museum. However, I imagine it and others are inundated by requests such as, "This here spoon has been in my family for three hundred years, can you tell me who the maker "EPNS" is?" Is there a cuttoff re the age/quality/rarity of the spoon, and would this one make the cut? If so, any recs as to whom to contact, and by what means? TIA! IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 06-02-2004 05:36 PM
Unfortunately, Rick, there is nothing about this spoon visible in the photograph that could tell precisely when or where it was made; only a maker's mark, family provenance, or some unusual decoration or characteristic engraving could allow even a guess. The only thing that can be said about it right now is that the short midrib usually is taken to be a relatively late development within the period for the style (not before the 1750's at the earliest), and that the evidence of extensive reworking as indicated by the lengthwise folds or "cracks" in the silver may mean that the maker was relatively inexperienced, perhaps an apprentice or someone else unfamiliar with proper use of the annealing process, or with proper finishing of the surface. Swages used to make decorations, such as a shell on the heel of the bowl of an American spoon, can, however, sometimes be traced at least regionally to their origins by their design (see the illustrated glossary in the back of Belden's book for terminology of several of these) - can you get a better photo of the design on the bowl (or even a drawing) and post it? As for Winterthur (or any other institution, which as you correctly surmise could be inundated with requests), asking unanswerable questions (or those within the power of a requestor to answer for himself) is the surest way to lose cooperation in the future -- better to ask better questions which require their greate expertise, or might otherwise provide information to both parties, and thus make the effort worth their while. Institutions are usuallly willing to answer questions from researchers or collectors, if they have the available staff; individuals anticipating to profit directly from the information they receive would do well to consider contributing to one of the museum's funds, if they expect further cooperation in the future. IP: Logged |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 06-02-2004 08:52 PM
Apparently the spoon is not old/unique enough to differentiate, something I'm trying to get a feeling for, that one can't well divine from texts alone. Here's a pic of the shell drop, also my drawing of it: Note that, numbering clockwise from the left, lobe #s 4 and 5 seem to share the same root, as also do #s 6 and 7. Maybe this could serve for possible identification. Otherwise, it's back in the box with the other unknowns! Re Belden, I don't as yet have a copy, seeing that they a going for about a kilobuck a pop on the used book sites that I frequent. However, I notice there are some new "photocopy" editions on the market for about $200. Any recommendations re these "cute rate" (?) specials? IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 06-02-2004 09:43 PM
Yes, Belden has gotten very pricey and, unless a sugar daddy/mommy steps forward, there are no plans to update/revise it. A pity. As for the photocopies, aside from violating a packet of copywrite laws, they may be good or awful, depending on the quality of the machine used and the maker's skill. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 06-03-2004 12:51 AM
Plain 11-lobed shells such as this one are among the most widespread and least diagnostic types, and could be expected to occur in any area. Some more localized variations in designs occur along with them in some places, and are more characteristic of specific regions. The odds of tracing the individual swage on which this spoon was stamped, which might be the only way to attribute it, might be imposibly great, at least until someone does a comprehensive study of these shells. I suggest you try to borrow a copy of Belden's book from a library or through interlibrary loan. You could then read the introductory chapter in which regional characteristics are discussed, and xerox only the illustrated glossary for future reference. Marks are often hard enough to make out in hand, so I wouldn't bother to try to copy the whole book - photographs of marks rarely copy well, and could lead to further errors in interpretation of essential details. And I wouldn't advise anyone to buy any old photocopy either - you might think it would be better than nothing, but in the hands of an inexperienced person it could be far worse (witness the mischief caused by blind reliance on the reproductions of drawn marks - some more inaccurate than others - in Wyler's obsolete book). For what is worth, I think some of the higher prices allegedly being asked for Belden's book today are way out of line. We value it and use it heavily because it is one of the most useful references around, but it isn't perfect, and the older it gets, the less it (or any similar book) is worth as an up to date reference. It, like many other silver references, has its share of erors, some original (a european mark, a letter read as the image of an animal, two - and even three - identical photographs being assigned to different unrelated and unconnected silversmiths) and some the expected results of newer research, and therefore, like those other older references, it must be used with some degree of care. How much is a book worth? That, obviously, is a personal decision. I have a lot of books (sometimes I, and especially my wife, think too many), but as long as there are libraries, there comes a point where I'd rather own for the same money a one-of a-kind silver object of some particular significance to me, than one of however many hundred or thousand printed copies of one book. Obviously, there are exceptions, and to some, this may be one, but I am just glad I got mine when I did, so I don't haave to make that decision. Probably your spoon is American, but I would suggest not spending too much more time and effort trying to do more of what, at least at the present state of knowledge, begs solution. Why not just shelve it for the time being, valuing it as a good example of a popular style of a third quarter 18th Century Colonial American spoon? [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 06-03-2004).] IP: Logged |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 06-03-2004 10:21 AM
Swarter said, "It, like many other silver references, has its share of erors, ..." Thanks for the chuckle! Yes, many a slip twixt cup and the lip! Regarding Belden, here's the description of the newly emergent, "cut-rate" text: Book Description: Book-On-Demand Reprint from edition originally published: Charlottesville VA : Published for the Henry Francis du Pont Winterthur Museum by the University Press of Virginia c1980. BRAND NEW SOFTCOVER - Print-to-order B&W REPRINT of original book published: Charlottesville VA : Published for the Henry Francis du Pont Winterthur Museum by the University Press of Virginia c1980. ill.518 Pages. Reprinted from microfilm of original text on acid-free archival quality paper - SOFTCOVER perfect bound Charts photographs & graphics may reproduce less than perfectly & may be reduced to fit pages. SPECIAL ORDER Allow 6 to 8 weeks for delivery. No Refund or Exchange unless not as described. So it apparently isn't a 5-cent-a-page library photocopier burglary, but the quality of the graphics is still unknown (as is its relation to copyright protection). Does anyone have knowledge of the print quality of this edition? IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 06-03-2004 11:29 AM
quote: This firm has been around for a long time; I am sure they pay a royalty to the original publishers in exchange for rights of reproduction, so it is undoubtably a "legal" copy. Microfilm reproduction tends to increase contrast drastically, which causes a loss of intermediate tones, and thus can compromise the accuracy of the depiction of the marks. It could well be worth while getting at a reasonable price for the other information in it (most users unfortunately seem to pay attention only to the photographs of marks, and carelessly ignore the rest) as each entry has brief histories of advertisements, directory listings, bibliographic references, and other tidbits that can be quite helpful, but realize that the republishers warnings about photographic quality may be well founded, and remember to be extra cautious in using such a copy for identification, especially by comparison with other photos (like those on ebay)and with worn marks, both of which may have already been compromised. Since publication is "on demand," each copy will be a "one-off," and there is no "edition" as such; quality could vary from copy to copy. If you decide to "go for it," let us know what it is like. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 06-03-2004 01:11 PM
I am reliably informed that the company does not have any agreement with Winterthur, who holds the copyright; the library's publications department will be seeing to it that the production is stopped and damages paid. Hope you haven't ordered a copy. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 06-03-2004 01:38 PM
So much for that! My impression in the past was that this company reproduced books on which copyrights had expired - I know little about them except that I have seen their name on and off for years; I would not have thought they would intentionally violate copyrights and still be in business. ------------------- N.B. I just checked the web site of the Books On Demand publishers I referred to above (ProQuest / UMI), which says they publish "copyright-cleared out-of-print books", so there may be a misunderstanding of some sort. This title is NOT in their list. They do, however offer Kathryn Buhler's 2 vol. MFA work. WEV has found another site (for "print to order books" and not "Books on Demand") which does list it - evidently they erred in their offering. Rick - email me or WEV the listing you found (don't post it - we don't want to suborn misguided business proctices)- I wonder how many others are out there? [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 06-03-2004).] IP: Logged |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 06-03-2004 03:54 PM
Stuart, "hot" Belden text source sent to you and Wm. V. via email. Please let us know whether this source is legit or not. Thanks! IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 06-03-2004 04:13 PM
Any offer of a photocopied Belden is a copyright violation; no one, per Winterthur, has been granted publication rights. IP: Logged |
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t-man-nc Posts: 327 |
posted 06-08-2004 06:46 AM
The Copy in B&W from the UMI Books on demand claims to be an "Authorized Facsimile", and while the copy is fine for the text, the photographs that are of the markers marks for the most part are ok, but those that started out light are dificult at best to read or see to compare to marks you might have. As such, I like the original...
IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 06-13-2004 06:34 PM
I brought the UMI Book on Demand copy of Marks of American Silversmiths in the Ineson-Bissell Collection by Louise Conway Belden some time ago as I could not find a copy of the original at any price. It states that it is an authorized facsimile and that UMI is a Bell & Howell Company. A number of the pictures in my copy did not copy well from the original and that led me to keep looking for an original copy. I finally did fine one at a not too outrageous price. I think the priced asked today has finally reached the limit; as the book now is readily available. Books today are saved in a digital format and reprints (assuming there is a demand) are fairly easy to obtain. I am currently involved with the publication of a garden book and I am amazed at the reasonable price for printing in the Asian countries. I might also mention that Louise Conway Belden is the author of The Festive Tradition, Table Decoration and Deserts in America, 1650-1900. Copies of this book are available at a reasonable price in the used book marketplace. This book is not about silversmiths, but it is a fascinating description of the proper use of china, glass, and silver. IP: Logged |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 01-11-2005 05:19 PM
BTW, saw a spoon very similar to this one (see original post above) on Ebay. Here's the auction page (auction is now closed), if interested. Photos are likely to disappear shortly. Seller attributes the significantly larger spoon to James Butler of Boston c.1750 (carries an engraved date of 1772). IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 07-03-2009 12:51 PM
I just stubbled across this posting. I was out on a flea market buying weekend and ran across a stall selling CD discs of the Belden book. He had, I forget how many copies, and let me view one on the mall owners computer. I bought all of them for somewhere around 30 to 50 dollars. I still have two for myself but sold the others on the west coast auction site. No, I was not greedy unlike corporate America. I sold them for shipping cost plus the gas money used in that trip. The quality was very good except for about 5 pages which seemed to be out of focus. As for the print on demand companies I have seen copies of different things they sell. I am not at all impressed and would rather just burn the money. I had in the past called Winterthur and as was said in the original post they have no intention of reprinting the book. IP: Logged |
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