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 American Silver before sterling
 Spurious countermarked coins?
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| Author | Topic: Spurious countermarked coins? |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 12-16-2004 10:54 AM
  
Are there known examples? Have any studies been done? IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 12-16-2004 12:40 PM
An interesting question. The only scenario I can imagine offhand, would be that, if counteermarks were validation of the legitimacy of coins by siloversmiths, counterfeiters of coins might also have counterfeited "assayer's" stamps. So my question would be: is there any evidence of any metal having been removed from marked coins for assay? Or could some other method have been used? IP: Logged |
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akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 12-16-2004 02:01 PM
Actually, if an unscrupulous coin dealer wanted to increase exponentially the value of a low-grade, high-mintage coin, counterstamping it would be an easy way to accomplish this. The counterstamped 1810 half-cent that launched our recent discussions sold on eBay for almost $200. (If it had been listed in the coin silver listings I suspect it might have fetched even more.) An un-counterstamped example, in rather better condition (VG), recently sold for only $29. So perhaps it's not farfetched to wonder whether anyone (perhaps someone who had punches that he also used on unmarked spoons, etc) ever decided to "tart up" an ugly old copper. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 12-16-2004 02:31 PM
Point taken - I was thinking of contemporary coin counterfeiters, not modern selleers - It should be relatively easy, however, to detect a modern stamp by diffenences in wear between the original surface and the stamp itself. Counterfeiters of marks often make mistakes, too, in their copies that give them away. An unknown mark wouldn't bring much, and a famous one would be recognized as false. If someone came across an old worn genuine punch, and chose to use it, then that could be trouble. It also doesn't seem to make sense to me to fake a punch for a $200 sale - a lot of trouble, expense, and risk for little return. One might get away with it once, but if used repeatedly, the risk of detection would escalate as the value decreased with decrease in rarity. But then I don't have a criminal mind. . . . IP: Logged |
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akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 12-16-2004 10:52 PM
Good points -- actually, if I were trying to do it, I probably wouldn't fake the silversmith marks, I'd just get a set of old-fashioned individual incuse-letter punches that I could then use to imitate or invent a bunch of different counterstamps (and that way it would also be easier to rub gunk into the letters to make them look old). Gosh, I guess I *do* have a criminal mind ... IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 12-16-2004 11:46 PM
I'm afraid you wouldn't last long in the 'trade.' Aside from easily cleaning the gunk, I could date the punches by letterform without much effort. And punching a line of letters, consistent in depth and on line, is not at all easy. I have actually done a touch of experimentation with forging a mark. I had a friend, sorely missed, who was a superb engraver and die cutter. After a discussion on the crudity of most forger's efforts, we decided to see what we could do. I ran up a pattern using an authentic 18th century typeface and my knowledge of spacing and forms and he cut the punch. We spent considerable time 'aging' the die; the hardest part was simulating the rounding of the top edge from natural wear. After some trial and error, we settled on a slightly tapered body with a flared neck at the depth of the drive. With a careful hammer blow, we got just the right worn look with no crisp edges. After that is was a simple matter to patina the surface and add some judicious scratching to the high points, etc. After a week of afternoons, we could do a mark that would fool 90% of the people with a 10 power loop. But to what end? As said, an anonymous mark, even on a rare coin, will seldom be worth the effort -- based on my fiddling, that $200 dollar coin would have paid $10 an hour less the price of the stock and coin. To attempt duplication of a known mark is a fool's errand, unless you have a fool on the receiving end. Better to stick with sports memorabilia -- those folks will buy anything. IP: Logged |
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akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 12-16-2004 11:58 PM
Ah, but even silver collecting has its fair share of fools (on both ends) ... cf. my thread on the "snuff rake." And as has been discussed elsewhere on these forums, there seems to be a rash of dubious Southern-marked silver appearing on the market ... so perhaps somebody else has discovered the "WEV method." [This message has been edited by akgdc (edited 12-17-2004).] IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 12-17-2004 12:06 AM
Too very true, though he is but a tree against a forest. Astounding. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 12-17-2004 12:26 AM
Amatuers. If I was going to dump a tasty piece as Southern, I'd start a good three years prior, donating half a dozen letters "written" by some 19th century resident of Huntsville Al, for example, to the local historical society. Most would be nothing but Damn Yankee chatter, but one would include a carefully crafted reference to that 'set of juleps' bought so extravagantly by Uncle Jekehiel from the local smith, Apoplexy Ames and given to Nathan Bedford Forrest on a ride through town. I'd then make up a suitably distressed tradecard and donate it to some other local society -- Sons of the South or whatever. When other such saltings were deposited, I'd take a good year or two off and then appear on the scene, offering up an incredibly rare julep (complete with 'source documentation' from said societies) by the hitherto unknown maker AA. You laugh, but take a look at the career of the Mormon forger Mark Hofmann -- exactly the same MO and got away with it for years. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 12-17-2004 12:33 AM
Did I mention that I have a fairly large collection of 19th century printing type, three hand presses and trained as a calligrapher and paper conservator? It does come in handy. . . Just kidding. . . IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 12-17-2004 01:13 AM
I have a fire damaged spoon from Chambersburg, PA , which damage I had attributed to Stonewall Jackson's raid during which he burned down much of the town. He was off raiding in Union Territory while he should have been at Gettysburg; his failure to get there in time to reinforce Pickett's charge up that fateful hill cost his side that final action and thus the battle was lost. This seemed like wonderful provenance and a great piece of deductive reasoning, even if I do say so myself. Now I have to worry if wev was experimenting with faking fire damage, too?  [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 12-17-2004).] IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 12-17-2004 07:07 AM
More likely the flames of hell did it. . . I'll work on the scale, you work on the story IP: Logged |
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florida_bob Posts: 54 |
posted 12-17-2004 09:07 PM
Interesting thread. Perhaps I can add some informational tidbits from the "coin world" side of things. There exist two types of counterfeit countermarks: a) those made contemporarily to pass as currency b) those made later to fool collectors A little background - The countermarked gold coins were assayed by a local silversmith/goldsmith, who then brought the coin "up to weight" by adding metal to the coin (if needed), and then stamping the coin in various ways with their mark. Once the coin was marked by the smith, it would be accepted in commerce. Naturally, once the criminals began to realize this, they acquired punches and stamped counterfeit or underweight coins in order to profit. Several of the counterfeits have survived. Believe it or not, they are highly valued by collectors. Sometimes they are more valuable than the authentic pieces ! Concerning type "a" above, the "West Indies Countermarked Gold Coins" book mentioned in a previous thread lists and illustrates many of the known countermarked gold coin counterfeits. Concerning type "b" above, I have seen a small number of modern counterfeit countermarks, but not many. This is primarily because countermarked coins have only recently risen dramatically in value. Also, as mentioned by someone else already, it is not as easy as you would think to manufacture a fake countermarked coin and actually fool a collector. I have purchased a few fakes in order to remove them from the market. So far, it has not been a large problem, but with eBay prices continuing to rise for these coins, I will not be surprised to see that change. By the way, some of the most notorious coin counterfeiters in U.S. history were silversmiths. An entire series of books has been written about them, but that is another subject altogether. Bob M. IP: Logged |
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