SMP Logo
SM Publications
Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.
SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

The Silver Salon Forums
Since 1993
Over 11,793 threads & 64,769 posts !!
American Silver before sterling Forum

A GLOSSARY of MILLED BANDS
Past American Coin Silver Forum topics/threads worth a look
WEV's American Silversmith's Family Tree Project Smith's Index

How to Post Photos REGISTER (click here)

customtitle open  SMP Silver Salon Forums
tlineopen  American Silver before sterling
tline3open  Toast rack

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

ForumFriend SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Toast rack
ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 09-24-2005 04:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote



The question was raised in another thread of whether or not to repair of some attractive tongs. This will not answer the question, but I am glad that someone decided to repair the Kirk toast rack shown above. Below you can see that a patch has been made at three locations on the bottom side. The repair method may be the same as the "reinforcing fitted patch" referred to by Swarter in his comments as a possible way to repair the tongs. The Kirk toast may have started it life with a design flaw in that three patches were need and while not shown in these pictures, the opposite end of one area that was patched has a very tiny stress fracture. Not big enough to worry about now, but I am careful not to put additional stress on it while polishing. In any event someone a long time ago decided to repair this toast rack and from the patina formed on the patches I would guess that it was within 50 years of its manufacture.

While I normally like to use silver for its original purpose I will say here that the kitchen staff will not serve toast in silver rack to me and I use it to collect mail on the front hall desk.

IP: Logged

Marc

Posts: 414
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 09-25-2005 05:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi there AHWT

This is a really nice piece. As you well know, there are several things to be considered when buying a piece of silver. Yes... one of them is usability. The toast rack can be used; the tongs no such luck.

When thinking about repairing a piece of silver (and I have lots of repair work done), my first consideration is What will it look like when it is completed? Is the repair really noticeable. Can the piece function like it like it was designed to? And the big question for a dealer, "is it worth more repaired or left alone?".

Concerning the tongs, the placement of a metal strip beneath the bridge is the best way to repair them. But, this is a major repair. To reach a similar level of damage, the toast rack would have to be nearly torn in half.

Now we come to a decision.. The value added of repairing the tongs is probbably not worth the cost of doing it. If the tongs cost $48. broken and it costs $65. to repair them, will the repaired tongs be worth more than $113. If the answer is no, the tongs should not be repaired, or even purchased. If the tongs had passed down to you from your family, there should be no question. If the money is available, the tongs should get repaired. Also, because tongs are "active" pieces, that is to use them, you really stress the joint, they tend to brake faster than most any other piece.

The decision on the toast rack is easier to make. The piece was already repaired, and the dealer knew it and you knew it. You lusted after it, and purchased it taking the more or less minor repairs into account.

The repairs to the toast rack are less visable than any repair to the tongs would be. The toast rack is showier, and presents better than the tongs and is normally subjected to much less stress.

I have rambled enough for tonight

Marc

IP: Logged

ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 09-25-2005 09:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To repair or not is in some measure a personal one and many factors can come into play. I am always grateful that there are skilled craftsman that know how to repair and restore treasured objects regardless of their intrinsic value.

This toast rack was already repaired when we brought it and we have always enjoyed it. My wife brought it years ago tucked in the bottom of box lot; no doubt thought by the owner as only silver plate. At the time she brought it neither of us even knew what coin silver was and we kept it simply because it was attractive. I can remember years later looking at the mark and wondering why I had not realized it was coin silver earlier. It does speak to a better lesson; that is to buy things that one likes and are attracted to and not what name is on the bottom.

IP: Logged

swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 09-25-2005 05:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually, this piece is nearly Sterling. The notation used in Baltimore for the earlier, lower coin standard of 1792 was 10.15. The 11oz (11/12) standard was adopted in 1837 (sterling is 11.2). Both 10.15 and 11 (as 11, 11oz, or 11/12) appear on Baltimore silver. Kirk and Warner continued to use these marks (which were abandoned by others) for some tinme after the demise of the assay office.

[This message has been edited by swarter (edited 09-25-2005).]

IP: Logged

ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 09-26-2005 10:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You are right as coin really is not the right word to describe an object made of an 11 oz alloy.

The compulsory assaying of silver ended in Baltimore in February 1830 however Kirk was one company that continued to have their silver assayed. From the book “Silver in Maryland”, I think Ms. Goldsborough indicates that Kirk silver after 1830 until at least 1835 would have an assay mark. Since this toast rack does not have an assay mark I assume it was made after 1835 and before 1846 when Kirk became Kirk and Son.

The plumed handle is somewhat reminiscent of other finials by Kirk during this time period, but I have not seen other pictures of the winged feet.

IP: Logged

Ulysses Dietz
Moderator

Posts: 1265
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 09-26-2005 10:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd just add into this mix the rarity of toast racks. How many American coin toast racks can one think of? A handful, if that. This may be the only known "pre-Son" Kirk toast rack.

Frankly, the idea of cold toast is un-American, which is why they're rare!

IP: Logged

Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 09-26-2005 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is there anything that indicates how or why the damage happened? Something on the order of a design flaw or mishandling. One guess I would make would be someone put it on a hot surface to warm up the toast. Just wondering if there is evidence of the mishap.

IP: Logged

ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 09-26-2005 03:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Above are pictures of the top and bottom of the end repair. You can see from the top that the center bar separated from the end bar. The repair on the underside extends all three directions at the intersection of the center bar and the end bar. From the earlier pictures one can see that a patch has also been added to the middle of both side bars. I am not sure what happened here as there is no sign of fracture when looking at the top. Perhaps the craftsman doing the repair thought they might break or perhaps a hairline crack had already developed. I am somewhat surprised that a patch was not made to the other end.
I am not sure that this explains the need for repair, but something did cause the cross bars to separate

I also included a picture of the stem not shown before.

IP: Logged

agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 09-28-2005 09:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ahwt, it is a handsome object and as Ulysses points out how many have we seen.

As a silversmith/maker with a love of old silver, and some repair experience, I have repaired three English toast racks. And yes toast racks, by their nature have a design flaw. Sterling silver is not a very strong metal and when the object is made up of thin wires with many solder joins it is bound to come apart. Most likely from mis-handling when being polished. As the bending and straightning of the rack harden the silver it will crack at the solder seams and weak points. Heat is not a worry as silver is a high temperature metal and high kitchen stove temperatures would at worst aneal it but not melt it or the solder.

The repair of your rack is a very workman like effort and will give it many years of use. You are right to treat it gently if you see a stress fracture.

On the subject of repairs it is all about the skill and experience of the smith. Not all smiths are good at all things and it would often be better to not have an object repaired than to have it done badly.
I am often asked to fix old and not so old repairs that if left alone would have been easy and straight forward to repair. I also have passed along jobs to more qualified smiths if I felt I did not have the skill/experience needed. There are some smiths that can do superb work, where it is almost impossible to tell there has been a repair.

IP: Logged

Marc

Posts: 414
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 09-28-2005 12:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi again,

If you are buying for yourself, always buy what makes you smile. You won't go wrong.

Second thing.. and this is directed at
AGLEOPAR... Who and where are you. I could always use a good silversmith. Please.

Thanks much.

Respectfully,

Marc Cutcher

IP: Logged

ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 09-29-2005 12:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for your comments agleopar. Perhaps the term “design defect” was a little too strong on my part and maybe “inherent in the nature of the object if used” is a better description. Helen Clifford in her book “Silver in London” notes that the mending of silver was an integral part of the business of the Parker and Wakelin partnership in 1760s and 1770s. “The customer accounts revealed that their silver received hard and regular use and was not kept purely for display.” As a result Parker and Wakelin had a real business need to maintain repair facilities to keep their customers happy. The repair of silver has been going on for a long time.

I did an internet search for laser welding that Ulysses discussed and found that this method does seem to offer advantages over some of the other methods. It is used in the jewelry business as it provides significant advantages in eliminating heat transfer. Perhaps laser welding will soon provide today’s silversmiths another tool to use.

IP: Logged

agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 09-29-2005 07:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ahwt, thankyou, I have not seen the Clifford book but will look for it, she, along with Phillipa Glanville and others have made great strides in uncovering the wonderful and until now hidden world of the actual smiths, not just the company figure heads, Bateman, Storr etc.

And yes toast racks are a bad design! But I would not make them any other way!! I love the delicacy of form and the function of holding air light toast (of course as an American even in England I never got used to buttering cold toast, oh well not everthing is perfect in life?).

I have been moving house and under the weather so I missed Ulysses laser welding coments. I have used them to do some gold work (3 projects, 2 for some jeweler friends, gold is not my usual medium but boy is it fun to work with and so easy compared to silver! [could not resist that for you jewelers out there]).

Lasers are one of the best new inovations and are great to use. Until recently they have not been calibrated to use with sterling, but I believe now they have solved that. Also they really only cover tiny areas so time wise they still are only good for jewelery. Having said that if I had one (still in the 20K range) and I was making a toast rack it would eliminate the years it took to learn how to hold all the individual pieces together for soldering. That is you could very quickly and so easily tack everthing together and then do your soldering. This would be its main use in silver smithing. There is a lot of room for inovation with lasers that only recently as the price comes down one is begining to see.

By the way, until I used one I had been very skeptical of Laser eye surgery. They are so acurate and so easy to use and so safe that I would go tommorrow if I needed it! It is hard to describe so if you have a jeweler friend who has one ask if you could see it in action.

P.S. I replied to Mr. Cutcher by e-mail, others are welcome, but like most smiths I know, its about a back log... and getting swamped.

[This message has been edited by agleopar (edited 09-29-2005).]

IP: Logged

asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 01-11-2017 12:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bumping this excellent thread!

IP: Logged

ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 01-11-2017 03:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Asheland, I am glad you liked that post. The toast rack still sets on a front hall desk collecting mail with pleasure. With judicious polishing the hairline crack has not changed so there has not been a need to take it in for repair.

I have always enjoyed this piece; in part because it reminds me of my wife’s good eye and her many attempts to start an antique business. She has tried her hand at buying and selling antiques several times, but finds she can only buy things she likes and can only sell things she does not like. That has resulted in a fairly large inventory and several filled storage units.
Art

IP: Logged

asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 01-12-2017 10:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can relate to keeping the good stuff! biggrin

I seldom sell silver, usually keep the better stuff also.

Funny thing is that I own a toast rack (British) and it sets on my desk and I enjoy looking at it. I have never polished mine and yet it looks good tarnished!

IP: Logged

doc

Posts: 728
Registered: Jul 2003

iconnumber posted 01-12-2017 07:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just love toast racks, and this is a really great one! I have one on my desk, too, and it holds my mailing labels.

IP: Logged

asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 01-13-2017 10:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's nice to use these old items for new purposes. smile
They are great for mail, etc.

Like I've heard of marrow scoops used for stirring drinks, etc.

IP: Logged

All times are ET

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a


1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.


| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver
| Update BOS Registration | Silver Library | For Sale | Our Wants List | Silver Dealers | Speakers Bureau |
| Silversmiths | How to set a table | Shows | SMP | Silver News |
copyright © 1993 - 2022 SM Publications
All Rights Reserved.
Legal & Privacy Notices