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Samuel Minott (Page 2)

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Author	Topic: Samuel Minott
PeterS Posts: 33 Registered: Mar 2006	posted 09-29-2006 12:24 PM Update After not hearing from RIHS for a couple of weeks, and not having my check cashed, I emailed them again. While I was at it I asked if, when I get the pictures if I could post them here. I explained the nature of this forum and how helpful you all had been. The reply was curt. Yes, we got the check. Since this is an object in the collection it will take at least 6 weeks for photos to be taken. You will get a release statement inthe mail that must be signed and returned. The pictures can not be posted at all. I'll let you know more when I hear anything. [This message has been edited by PeterS (edited 09-29-2006).] IP: Logged
FWG Posts: 845 Registered: Aug 2005	posted 09-29-2006 03:26 PM I recently got a quote from an institution of $75 to produce a 300dpi scan of a regular-size photograph, and an additional $100 to post it online for more than six months - so it can get much worse. (I declined, and will try to find alternatives for those photos -- it was for a non-silver project). Research and especially publishing are getting harder and harder, although happily one still finds many old-fashioned librarians and curators who want to see their materials used. Worst case: pray you never have to get permission from Disney.... IP: Logged
Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 Registered: May 99	posted 09-30-2006 12:07 PM I hate to think what it would have cost for all the museum's pictures I've blithely posted on various threads over the years. However, our general rule is that we will waive publication fees for non-commercial and/or scholarly publication of an image, and we are much less fussy about digital images in terms of charging for images. IP: Logged
FredZ Posts: 1070 Registered: Jun 99	posted 09-30-2006 05:28 PM I am still rather surprized that you are not getting more help from the RIHS. I would think they would be thrilled to learn more about your tankard and it's possible association with their's. Seems monitary needs win over scholarly needs, Perhaps you could get someone who is involved with your local Historical Society to become intererested in your research. They might be better able to access the RIHS information without all the fuss. I would not delay in removing the lock and have a respected locksmith remove it while you are there watching. Explain that you are concerned about scratches since it is a family heirloom. I might even suggest covering up the surface with masking tape to protect the surfaces. The gum residue can easily removed after the lock has been removed. curious to see what is inside and if the darts caused any damage. Thanks for keeping us posted. Fred IP: Logged
PeterS Posts: 33 Registered: Mar 2006	posted 11-03-2006 03:23 PM Update I finally got the pictures from the Rhode Island Historical Society!!! I wish I could post them, but alas I had to sign a agreement that I would not. It is the same crest, with some minor differences. I wish I knew enough about heraldry to describe them properly. There are even differences in the initials on the handles.. First the handles. On mine ( pictured before) the initials are seperated by equal signs, on the RIHS one the BS are seperated by a sort of squiggle or possibly a fluer de lis - the SS are just like mine. The engraving looks a little cruder on the RIHS one. But the placement is exactly the same. It is strange that the RIHS couldn'e give me better pictures than I was able to take with a fairly cheap set up. And the resolution is terrible. I also asked (and paid for) a close up of the crest and they sent a picture of the whole front of the tankard. So, when I zoom onto the crest itself it losses detail. The crest is like mine: same lion, same unicorn, same background bands similar floral pattern but not exact outside of crest. slightly different shape of the shield. I would love to show someone in the New York area the pictures for a better, more expert opinion. Is anyone available? IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 11-03-2006 06:56 PM My guess without seeing them would be that the two tankards might not have been made (or engraved) at the same time, and the second engraver did not have the first tankard before him to copy exactly, or that the purchaser did not specify exact duplication. Another possibility would be that, if made at the same time, each might have been given to a different engraver (two journeymen in the same shop, for example). IP: Logged
Silver Lyon Posts: 363 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 11-12-2006 01:45 PM I have a feeling that there is a fine Minott tankard in the Minneapolis Institute of Arts - it should be found described in "English and American Silver in the Minneapolis Institute of Arts" published in 1989. From memory this piece is very similar to yours, and therefore the RISDE one. I am sure that the curatorial staff at MIA will be very helpful if asked! IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 11-12-2006 02:25 PM There is indeed - it is number 218 on pages 267-8. It is of similar appearance and dimensions (8 1/4" tall and 5 1/4" in diameter at the base), but appears more tapered than the subject of this thread, having a diameter at the lip of 4", a dimension we do not have for this one. Either the MIA example is more squat in shape, or it only appears so as a result of photographic technique resulting in an exaggerated parallax. Perhaps Peter can provide this measurement - it looks to be greater than 4" wide at the top, relative to the base (or 4 1/2, since Peter's is 1/4" larger in each dimension he measured). Ownership of the MIA tankard was also different, being first engraved with I*R and then "Hubburd." The arms and crest are also unrelated. IP: Logged
PeterS Posts: 33 Registered: Mar 2006	posted 12-13-2006 10:35 PM I know it is close to the holidays and everthing, but is there nobody who would look at the picture in the New York area? Ulysses, are you at the Newark museum? is it accessable by PATH, could I make an appointment? IP: Logged
outwest Posts: 390 Registered: Nov 2005	posted 01-03-2007 02:11 AM Peter, Why don't you submit your tankard to the History Detectives?? It sounds like you could use some help here (I love that show). IP: Logged
PeterS Posts: 33 Registered: Mar 2006	posted 03-06-2007 07:28 PM Wondering if anyone is interested in viewing either the tankard or the cann? IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 Registered: Apr 93	posted 03-06-2007 07:47 PM I would. And I know at least two others in NYC area IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 03-06-2007 10:00 PM It would be intersting to hear a little bit more about spouts on tankards. I sold a pewter tankard a few years back with a spout that just looked like it was originally meant to be part of the tankard. Also, just out of curiosity, does anyone know if and when Samuel Minott did finally make an oath of allegiance to the United States? [This message has been edited by bascall (edited 03-06-2007).] IP: Logged
outwest Posts: 390 Registered: Nov 2005	posted 03-07-2007 12:17 AM I have been following this thread for a year now. Did you EVER get any answer for anyone? Is the lock still on it? IP: Logged
PeterS Posts: 33 Registered: Mar 2006	posted 03-07-2007 03:09 AM No, the lock is still on it. The tankard and the cann are just turning a great black color. If anybody does want to see it for themselves, please contact me. I would love to have one to one contact, I'm afraid to go to someone and ask as I am naive, but I would love to know more. I would love to know more about it. But, I've reached the limit of what I can find out on my own. I need someone respectable to verify what I have. Scott - where are you in NYC? IP: Logged
PeterS Posts: 33 Registered: Mar 2006	posted 03-28-2007 10:30 PM I have been busy for the last couple of weeks, sorry I have not responded earlier. From what I know Minott was an Addressor to Hutchinson. That meant that he actively supported the royalists in the time immediately preceding the revolution. Hutchinson was the Royal Governor of Massachusetts, those Addressors singed declarations of loyalty. During the British occupation of Boston only the Loyalists and some of the poor (and a few merchants to look after property) stayed in town. When the British retreated to Halifax most of these Loyalist went with them, and eventually moved back to Britain. Minott did not leave and was able to resume practice shortly after the war. This seems very strange unless there is more to the story. He was arrested in 1776 sources cite the Massachusetts Council for that information, but I have not found out where I can get that information first hand without digging through some records in some archive or something. In regards to the spout, I’m no expert, but it is well made. I do doubt that it is original though as the “matching” tankard at the RIHS did not have one. But, who knows? I have contacted our fearless leader Scott and may soon get together with him. Maybe I’ll have more to report after that meeting. IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 03-30-2007 08:32 PM PeterS thank you so much for responding to my comments. Here's a book title that you might find interesting if you're able to get your hands on it: Paul Revere & The World He Lived In by Esther Forbes. There is quite a bit said in it about what life was like before, during and after the Revolutionary War for tories and patriots in Boston. My assessment from reading this book is that the tories and patriots outside of the politcal sphere were remarkably tolerant of one another. IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 04-03-2007 08:48 PM quote: Originally posted by bascall: It would be interesting to hear a little bit more about spouts on tankards. I sold a pewter tankard a few years back with a spout that just looked like it was originally meant to be part of the tankard. Also, just out of curiosity, does anyone know if and when Samuel Minott did finally make an oath of allegiance to the United States? As a possible partial answer to my own question about spouts, Francis Hill Bigelow in his book Historic Silver Of The Colonies And Its Makers says that "Many an early tankard was saved from the melting pot by adding a spout during the temperance movement. In a way this enabled the possessor to have cake and eat it too." So the observation that the spout was a later addition to this tankard must be correct. I also read somewhere that when coffee first became popular in Europe spouts were added to flagons for serving it. IP: Logged
outwest Posts: 390 Registered: Nov 2005	posted 04-04-2007 01:59 AM Just want to say I am very much looking forward to Scott's and your report. IP: Logged
PeterS Posts: 33 Registered: Mar 2006	posted 08-24-2007 07:35 PM Sorry to be out of touch. Lot of personal stuff. Anyone still interested in meeting in NYC? IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 Registered: Apr 93	posted 08-24-2007 09:16 PM yup IP: Logged
agleopar Posts: 850 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 08-25-2007 10:07 AM Hi Peter, that is a yes also. If you have my info get in touch, I am on the same Monday schedual as last year, starting this coming Monday. IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 04-06-2008 12:04 AM quote: Originally posted by swarter: It is obvious that the spout was placed on the side (although that position is not unique) to avoid disturbing the coat of arms, which was thoughtful, even if the alteration was not. However, at the time it was done, it probably was not yet an heirloom piece, and provided a more practical, if awkward, use as a pitcher. The book MARKS of Achievement: Four Centuries of American Presentation Silver by WARREN, David B., HOWE, Katherine S. and BROWN, Michael K. has an illustration (#89,90, cat. #54) of a tankard with spout and two canns that are very similar to the tankard and cann in this post. The pieces in the book are by Benjamin Burt and commemorate 1780 achievements of Commander John Harraden and his brigantine General Pickering. The Burt tankard's spout is a curiosity because it is difficult to imagine any alterations being done to a presentation piece such as this one. IP: Logged
Polly Posts: 1970 Registered: Nov 2004	posted 03-20-2012 05:29 PM How very sad that we never got to learn the end of the fascinating saga of Peter's Minott tankard and its lock. Last weekend I found a sweet little 4 1/2 inch bright-cut, shellback teaspoon by Minott: IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 03-20-2012 10:10 PM Nice find. Nice mark, too. IP: Logged
Polly Posts: 1970 Registered: Nov 2004	posted 03-21-2012 01:45 PM Thank you, Stuart. IP: Logged

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