posted 11-03-2005 01:45 AM            

Would you repair it? If so where would you take it?

posted 11-03-2005 01:57 PM            

Miles Greenwood was quite a celebrity:

According to Appleton's Cyclopedia of American Biography, edited by James Grant Wilson, John Fiske and Stanley L. Klos. Six volumes, New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1887-1889:
"GREENWOOD, Miles, manufacturer, born in Jersey City, New Jersey, 19 March, 1807; died in Cincinnati, Ohio, 6 November, 1885. He removed to Ohio with his father in 1817, settled near Cincinnati, and in 1832 established, on the Miami canal, the Eagle ironworks, which soon became the largest in the west. His buildings were destroyed by fire in 1852, but were soon rebuilt. During the civil war the works were employed in behalf of the government, all other business being suspended. At the beginning of the war Mr. Greenwood made for General Fremont twelve anchors for pontoon-bridges on twenty-four hours' notice. He also built machines that rifled 3,000 smooth-bore muskets a day, cast 150 bronze field guns in a brief period, and built a turret-monitor when other builders declined the contract. Southerners vainly tried to persuade him to cease aiding the government, and his works were set on fire three times, with a loss of $100,000. He organized the first paid fire department in Cincinnati in 1852, and in the same year aided in introducing into that City the first steam fire-engine in the United States. He used to boast that in thus abolishing the old-fashioned fire-engine house and its attendant vices, he had done more for the cause of morality than many preachers. He was one of the founders of the Ohio mechanics' institute."

From HISTORICAL COLLECTIONS OF OHIO By Henry Howe, LL.D., 1898:

quote:

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The old volunteer fire system, once the pride of the citizens, had fallen into disrepute.

The better class had either neglected the companies to which they belonged, or had been shouldered out by the worse elements of a prosperous town. This evil was not confined to Cincinnati. Every city in the Union suffered from the same cause. The Mose of New York, the brazen checked, red shirted ruffian was duplicated in every municipality that possessed a fire department. Jacob Wykoff Piatt returned to the city council at a time when the most reputable citizens considered it an honor to be a councilman, opened war on the volunteers, by introducing an ordinance providing for the se1ection of, and paying the firemen for their services.

There was scarcely a member of council that did not privately admit the necessity for such a reform, and yet when the vote was taken, in a chamber crowded by roughs, whose noisy demonstrations left no doubt as to their opposition, but one man was found brave enough to vote with Mr. Piatt in favor of this measure. This gentleman was Judge Timothy Walker, the well known author and jurist. Nothing daunted Mr. Piatt continued his efforts. At every assembly of a new council, his ordinance was offered to be again voted down. But the minority grew slowly in spite of the brutal opposition. Mr. Piatt was wont to defy the crowd in the debate that preceded defeat, and the feeling got so intense, that it was dangerous for the bold reformer to go to and from the chamber. As it was a volunteer guard of Irish constituents accompanied representative. One night after a heated debate a mob assembled in front of Mr. Piatt’S residence and amid groans, hisses, howls and yells, he was burned in effigy.

This contest continued for years. A happy event, however, came to end it. This was the invention and building of the Latta fire engine. After being tested by a commission of experts, the engine was accepted. What to do with it was the question. Turn it over to the volunteers was to insure its immediate destruction. It was resolved, at length, to organize a paid company to use and protect the machine. A committee was appointed having on it Messrs. Piatt, Walker, Kessler and Loder to organize a company. To the amusement of his associates Mr. Piatt nominated Miles Greenwood as the captain of the new company. Judge Walker remonstrated. It was, he said, putting the new engine in the hands of the enemy, for Miles Greenwood was the pet of the volunteers, and had been loud in his denunciation of what he called the degradation of the paid system. Mr. Piatt persisted and asserted that Greenwood was the only man in the city who would make the new machine a success.

“Well try him,” was the response, “he won’t accept.”

Greenwood was sent for. He was startled at the offer but immediately accepted, provided that he could select the men.

“The machine will be attacked at the first fire, and I want to know whom I am to rely on.’’

The first alarm of fire that brought out the new engine proved the correctness of Greenwood’s prophecy. The fire was a serious one on Sycamore street above Fourth. The general alarm brought all the engines to the fire and among the rest the new steam machine. Drawn by huge horses at a gallop, driven by Miles himself, a noble figure in his brass helmet, red shirt and speaking trumpet swung to his side. The impression made on the swiftly gathering crowd was impressive. Miles had about him the newly made firemen in their splendid uniforms. He had in addition all the men of his great foundry and workshops; and hurrying to the front of his first and only fight came Jacob Wykoff Piatt, followed by two hundred and fifty bold Irishmen from the old Thirteenth.

The volunteers were prompt to a redemption of their word. They attacked the new fire company. The fight was fierce, bloody and brief Miles Greenwood led the van. His tall figure, bright helmet and trumpet toned voice, made him a leader to follow and a man to fear. The engagement lasted about thirty minutes. A few bloody heads, and damaged countenances, and the tumult ended in the volunteer companies striving to put the steam “squirt,” as they called the new engine, omit of public favor, through their own superior management and work.

It was all in vain. The new device won, and in less than a month all the fire companies were clamoring for the new invention, organization and pay.

We write with unusual gratification the name of Miles Greenwood, who died in 1885. He was one of the strongest, most useful public-spirited men in the annals of Ohio. He was of a large, strong physique, a great worker, labored incessantly in his own business and in many public enterprises. He was of Massachusetts stock, but was born in Jersey City, March 19, 1807; mingling in his veins were English, Huguenot French and German blood. In 1831 with ten hands he started iron founding in this city and eventually had an immense establishment.

In 1861 he turned it into a United States Arsenal for the manufacture of implements of war. Upward of 700 hands were employed, and among the goods turned out were over 200 bronze cannon, the first ever made in the West, hundreds of caissons and gun carriages, also a seagoing monitor; and forty thousand Springfield muskets were turned into rifles and supplied with percussion locks——a very effective weapon with tremendous “kicking qualities,” so the soldiers who used it laughingly said.

To Mr. Greenwood the Cincinnati Fire Department was greatly indebted for its efficient organization.

Having been a leading spirit in time old volunteer fire department, he was induced by Jacob Wykoff Piatt to assume the leadership of the paid steam fire department. Once enlisted in behalf of the paid system, he quickly perceived the possibilities of vastly increased efficiency, and with iron will and never shrinking bravery determinedly fought and overcame all opposition. At one time the City Council failed to appropriate money to pay the men, and during this time Mr. Greenwood advanced for this purpose $15,000, to keep the men together by paying them regularly.

Night and day he was constantly engaged in fighting the opposition to the organization.

He had no time to attend to his own business, but paid a man $1,500 to attend to it for him. Of this sum the city subsequently reimbursed him $1, 000, which he at once paid into the funds of the Mechanics’ Institute. Eventually every difficulty was overcome, and today such a thing as a volunteer fire department is unknown in any city of the first class in Europe or America.

The first steam fire engine ever built that was used at a fire was constructed at Greenwood’S establishment by Messrs. Shawk & Latta, and was first used on a Sunday morning in May, 1852. It was named the Uncle Joe Ross. It initiated a moral reform, as under the old system the engine houses had been the nurseries where the youth of the city were trained in vice, vulgarity and debauchery.

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THere's even a historic fire fighting apparatus society at: http://milesgreenwood.org/

posted 11-03-2005 03:03 PM            

I know about him, but you uncovered websites and information I knew nothing about! I did not mention who he was in my original post because before your comments nobody seemed to think he was in any way an important guy. At least, nobody but me. The jeweler, for one, couldn't have cared less. I figured I wouldn't even bring up the coolness of the guy here, but rather ask about the repair since that is what I am trying to decide whether to do or not. I can't tell you how exciting it is to see someone else even mildly interested.

Miles Greenwood is a distant ancestor of mine. We inherited the pitcher along with other things of his (he was big into silver, that's for sure) in a convoluted way. It's the way things happen when wealthy people do not produce enough children. He had one daughter who then had one daughter. That daughter (his Granddaughter) had no children so when her husband died all the things were passed to some cousins and about 125 years later down to me (far from wealthy).

I think what you are suggesting is that I try to contact a museum, right? I do not care if the cost of the repair exceeds any monetary value the pitcher may have. I see it as a little chunk of history. I was just concerned that I not ruin this little piece of history and I want to do the right thing.

I enjoy thinking about all those firemen pooling their meager money to give this fancy pitcher to a wealthy man. He really must have meant something to those men, don't you think?

For those who asked here is the mark on the bottom of the pitcher. As you can see it is just Kinseys name again. Coin was rarely marked as such at that time (except maybe by the major manufacturers-correct?), but I am sure it is coin. If it was plate I doubt it would have bent in the manner it did when dropped way back when. I suppose I could have it assayed or something, but I wouldn't even even know where to have that done. And if it did turn out to be plated would I care? No.

I've sometimes wondered if there was a fire museum or something I should give it to, but I am not ready to part with it just so they can put it in a drawer in a warehouse.

posted 11-03-2005 03:42 PM            

If you want to talk to someone local who can advise you on the repair, email me for a name of a competant silversmith practically around the corner from you. This should not be a difficult repair.

posted 11-03-2005 04:33 PM            

! You think you know someone around here? !That would be terrific! I have worried about sending it in a box far away.

Thank you to everyone who has replied. What fun this is. I may have to subject you to some other stuff I have questions about. I have read a lot, but probably not enough. I am trying to gather info on things and put it all in one place so that maybe one of my children will be able to enjoy and appreciate it, too.

posted 11-03-2005 05:07 PM            

As already noted, the repair should be an easy one, and not terribly expensive. Even if it should crack -- which my limited experience suggests is not likely -- that's not a hard repair.

Personally, I would never do business again with the firm that was going to ship this off to Ohio for repair. In several states I have had or heard of similar experiences, where the big, well-known, high-end jeweler was actually not a very good place to have work done -- of any sort, including watches, jewelry, and silver, I've seen this as a common pattern. Your best bet, again as already suggested, is to find a real silversmith or a working jeweler -- someone who actually makes things from scratch -- whose work you can see and approve. That person I would trust. A swanky retailer, I've come to be VERY skeptical of.

With a piece like that I always recommend it stay in the family, as long as someone in the family knows what it is and appreciates it. Yes, it has historical (and monetary) value beyond the family, but not as much as it means to you. If it's going to be passed on to a generation that has no one who appreciates such things, then I'd suggest looking into suitable places for donation. But don't give up family history lightly.

Kinsey did a huge amount of business, and their work is not uncommon in southern Ohio and northern Kentucky. I *think* I've even seen one other piece signed as made by Edward, back when I was living in Lexington, but I'm not certain of that. There's a general feeling that they actually made relatively little, that they got most of their stock wholesale from manufacturers -- which was not uncommon -- but this piece demonstrates that they could also produce their own silver work at a very high standard.

Don't assume that those were poor firemen pooling their money. It was very common in the 1830s-40s (or so) for the fire companies to be made up of some of the leading men of the town, and in fact it's not unusual for silversmiths and jewelers to have served as firemen. (I suspect it was partly a social function, but also of course those were the people who had the most to lose in a fire, so it was in their interest to help fight them) A bit of library or archival research can probably even produce the names of the men on that fire company, and I'd recommend doing it. It would add to your knowledge of the family history.

This is a very nice piece of silver, and a great piece of history, and I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say thanks for sharing it!

posted 11-03-2005 05:16 PM            

Miles Greenwood was the Chief Engineer then, and that was the year they went to a paid fire company instead of volunteers.

Correction: the site referenced here lists the fire chiefs for the different companies, not the individual firemen But if you find a local history (they were widely prepared in the late 19C, in most parts of the eastern US at least, on a county or city basis) those usually list such details.

posted 11-03-2005 06:33 PM            

I do know that during that time sometimes coin was marked and sometimes not.

I know the pitcher could possibly be plate, but it doesn't FEEL like plate. Does that make any sense? I think the silversmith (when I find one, trust one and take it there) will be able to tell me for absolutely sure.

And thank you all so much for finding out stuff about Miles that even I didn't know. I did not expect anyone to take an interest in the old guy. (don't you just love the beard!)

posted 11-04-2005 01:23 PM            

quote:

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I do know that during that time sometimes coin was marked:

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Your piece is almost certainly "coin silver." There are several discussions of the meaning of that term that can be found with the search function, but suffice it to say that if a piece is marked "coin" or "pure coin" is is supposed to be warranted by the maker to conform to the official coin standard in force at that time; if not marked it could be anything, as the precise content depended on the source of silver used, often melted coins of various standards of purity, but of solid silver alloy nonetheless, and not silver plate.

posted 11-05-2005 01:50 AM            

This is from a site about the history of Cincinnati:

"As early as 1853 steps had been taken for the organization of a paid fire department through the efforts of Miles Greenwood, who for a long time paid the cost out of his own pocket and battled with the volunteer department. He succeeded, was reimbursed by the city, and the paid service was finally established and soon became popular with the people."

As far as the pitcher goes:
I know that the Cincinnati Art Museum purchased a pitcher almost like mine(I like my handle better - hee hee). I had inquired about art carved furniture made by ladies in Cincinnati that they had written a book about. When the curator was emailing back about that she made an off hand inquiry to see if I had any holloware from Cincinnati as she was now researching that. So, about two years ago, I sent her a photo of the pitcher. I do not recall emailing the engraving. She sent me a postcard of the one they owned and several pages discussing Edward Kinsey (and later David) with photographs and old ads. In the photo is a picture of a pitcher almost identical to mine. I don't believe she even knew mine was engraved. She said she did not know of any others besides the one they purchased and mine, but I would not be surprised if there weren't a number of them out there somewhere.

I think it is beautiful, but mine is most important to me because of the engraving and my connection to it.

Funny thing:
Last night I decided to share the pitcher with that old fire equipment society's website that was uncovered in this thread. Why the heck not, I thought? After all, they named their society Miles Greenwood! Well, their webmaster put the pitcher on that site. He seemed very happy to see it and I felt good that I had shared that. He seemed to care about the engraving, too.

Isn't it funny how things go around? I just liked looking and thinking about the pitcher. I like history and silver seems to scream history, doesn't it? So, the base dent has bothered me. I started feeling like I owed it to old Miles to fix his pitcher. After my experience at the jewelers and almost making a mistake I would forever regret I started hunting for people just like you on the internet. I needed more information. And because of that I got to look at one of my ancestors gravestones in a State I've never been to and never really planned to visit. I believe that was his Grandfathers grave-maybe his Father's-I need to double check the dates. My mother has done a large amount of geneology. It's weird. Miles reminds me of some of my family. And his personality, too.

I know when it comes down to it, it is really just a piece of old silver, but to me it is more then that. Maybe I will hunt for that fire engine #3 roster. Who knows who I'll find on it.

Thanks everybody.
It's meant a lot to me.

posted 11-05-2005 12:36 PM            

By the way, the date on the pitcher is January 1st, 1844. Miles was involved with the volunteers for years before the paid fire department.

I, too, wonder if Kinsey was a member of the Mechanics Institute. I believe Miles was also an organizer of that. He was a very civic minded individual, wasn't he!

I am going to look into the repair today with a silversmith near me.

posted 11-10-2005 02:27 PM            

Everyone says it should be repaired properly, but they haven't said what properly means or exactly what should be done to it. I know he isn't going to plate the whole thing like the jeweler said they might have to do. He seemed interested in it and showed me the Cincinnati Silversmiths Book with Kinsey's section (that was fun!). I have to trust someone and this silversmith seemed very trustworthy and talented.

It never occured to me that the piece was worth anything monetarily because Kinsey is one of hundreds of little silversmiths at that time and Miles Greenwood seemed just a civic minded regular guy and it was made in the 1800's, not the 1600's/1700's. It has some mild regional interest in Ohio, I guess, I didn't think of that.

He weighed it and it weighs 44 troy ounces. That seemed like a hefty amount although I don't know what comparable pitchers weigh. Maybe I should have it appraised, huh?

I just like looking at it and enjoying it's history and didn't want to mess it up. And I also wanted to see it standing tall instead of listing to the side.