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 American Silver before sterling
 Before and After of Kinsey Pitcher Repair
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| Author | Topic: Before and After of Kinsey Pitcher Repair |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 11-18-2005 08:23 PM
  
[19-0624 26-0759 26-0785]
Here are the before and after. Base before: Base after: Pitcher before: Pitcher After: I am amazed at how bright and shiny it is. I could never get it to look so good with my grocery store bought silver polish. I bought some of the kind he uses along with a polisher stuff that is not a lacquer. I almost want to use it for water at Thanksgiving, but I would be afraid to drop it! I also had him remove the discolorations on the carbon steel blades of a set of Whiting Imperial Queen Banquet knives. He says it does not look like they were ever plated like most sterling knives were. They are beautiful, too and those I will use for Thanksgiving. I didn't think I'd be able to fix those. Here's to you IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 11-18-2005 08:45 PM
A most enviable piece of silver. By all means honour the maker by using it as intended (though I would pour the more appropriate hard cider, having little taste for water). IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 11-19-2005 12:34 AM
Say, if you really think it would okay to actually use it for a special day, I would love to. I am having my whole family over (whom I adore). They are the ones who thought nothing of it ('just a black hunk of metal'). It will make a stunning addition to the table, I think. And a conversation piece, too. I will have SUCH fun showing them how beautiful it is.  hee hee hee Is it honestly okay to use it? I guess it is silver and meant to be used. I'm looking forward to using the coin flatwear with the Whiting knives. too! IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 11-19-2005 02:02 AM
Yes IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 11-19-2005 02:18 AM
Now, to figure out how to make hard cider.  IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 11-19-2005 08:08 AM
You will have to wait until next year for hard cider. Store bought apple juice cannot be used as it contains preservatives. Fresh apple juice is used as it contains a natural yeast. When making it all air must be kept out. See if there is a wine making supply store near you. They have everything you will need. From starting point to enjoyment is about 4 to 6 months. By the way, the 'old-timers' used to make hard cider then freeze it. After freezing the bloke of frozen cider was cracked open. There would be a small amount of unfrozen liquid inside. It is said that this was relatively high in alcohol content. Take their car keys away and hide them. Happy holidays. OH, what the heck; I have never been politically correct so Happy Thanksgiving and have a very MERRY CHRISTMAS. IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 11-19-2005 11:27 AM
By all means, use it! The best way to keep silver clean and polished, while developing its patina, is to use it. There are now store-bought hard ciders available. The most widely distributed is probably Woodchuck, from Vermont, but there are other Americans, French, Spanish, maybe others as well. Most are now made sparkling, but just leave them to sit and that will go away! You can make hard cider from pasteurized juice, you just have to add a winemakers yeast. That's actually the preferred way, as it gives you control over what yeast does the fermentation. Some wild yeasts can be pretty funky.... The actual fermentation will take only 5-10 days, depending on the temperature, the yeast, the sugar levels, etc., but then it will need to sit undisturbed for at least a couple of weeks to allow the dead yeasts to settle out -- makes it clear, and to most people a bit better tasting. It can then be bottled and either drunk or stored; a good cider will age for a few years just fine. The freezing method absolutely works, although the usual method is to keep an eye on it as it freezes and periodically skim off the ice -- that way you can get it to the strength you like most. (The secret is that the freezing point of alcohol is lower than that of water, so the water freezes out leaving the liquid alcohol behind) The product is traditionally called applejack, and it was a way of making apple 'brandy' without a still. If you start from a good cider it can be quite good! And yes it's legal. A homeowner in the US is allowed to make something like 200 gallons of fermented goods (beer, wine, mead, cider, cyser, etc.) annually. Distillation without a license is illegal in some places, though. But I've never seen that applied to applejack made for home consumption -- or, for that matter, to tabletop stills for private use, which are sometimes marketed in the mailorder catalogs. The gist of all this: enjoy it! IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 11-19-2005 11:35 AM
PS: If you do decide to try cider, the best is made from tart, not really sweet, apples. The classic was the winesap, but those are nearly impossible to find now -- and most of the ones called winesap that I've tried in recent years have had little similarity to the ones we used to get in the Blue Ridge Mountains when I was a kid. If you need to add sugar to raise the levels for fermentation I recommend honey rather than cane or beet sugar, as it tends to complement the apple flavor. Technically the product then is a "cyser", an apple mead. These date back centuries, and certainly would have been used in colonial and federal America. IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 11-19-2005 01:08 PM
I wish I were going to your place for Thanksgiving! Enjoy your beautiful pitcher and drink a cup of cider for me. IP: Logged |
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dragonflywink Posts: 993 |
posted 11-20-2005 01:34 PM
What a lovely piece and how fortunate that your silversmith had the knowledge and skill to restore a treasured family heirloom so carefully. The old graphic artist in me appreciates the layout and design choices in that beautiful engraving, but do have to wonder if the engraver just wanted to scream when he put that backwards "s" in "Miles". Cheryl IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 11-20-2005 02:05 PM
I am happy to hear the repairs turned out as expected. I am sure you would have been told if there were any potential problems, such as weakened or previously repaired solder joints where the handle is attached, or especially thin silver in the region of the collapse -- these are problems that are not uncommon with old silver, but less so with premium pieces such as yours -- but if you hadn't already done so, you might want to ask just to reassure yourself before you use it. How much water does it hold? If your pitcher is as large as the one illustrated in Mrs. Beckman's book (14" tall), it might be wise to handle it particularly carefully (which I am sure you don't need to be told), but especially when it is full. Be careful not to set it down hard, and to support the base with one hand to take the full load off the handle while carrying and pouring. This makes it impossible to hold the glass you want to fill, so you might not want to fill the font or reservoir to capacity, so that you would lessen the weight bearing on the handle while you are pouring. You should have many years of satisfaction in owning such a fine heirloom object. Lucky for you that your family members didn't think as much of it as tne men who commissioned it in the first place! IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 11-20-2005 05:42 PM
I don't think there are any thin areas in the pitcher. There is no evidence that it had any soldering on it at any time. The silversmith did say it appeared to have been worked on in one 1 inch area of the bowl at some point in the past. I know it had to be decades ago. There are a handful of pepper size specks visible only if you look and turn it in a bright light. He said that you shouldn't take a hammer to it as it thins the metal, but that in this area someone had. He also got out two small quarter inch round spots that he said was from some chemical that might have been splashed on it (at least they aren't visible anymore). Honestly, it looks almost pristine. I was honestly surprised at how good it looked. He did weigh it and said it weighed just over 44 ounces. I just measured it and it is just under 14 inches at the highest point. For fun I filled it up and measured how much it holds. I was surprised to find that it holds 8 cups eXACtly, up to the decoration on the bowl. Do you think that amount was purposeful or coincidence? I asked the silver smith about the handle because I was surprised that the handle had never cracked or broken and he did say that the handle was quite strong. It pours very smoothly (I can pour a tiny stream of water if I want) and is easy to pour by not grasping the handle at all (which I did). He said he couldn't tell for sure if the handle was made in two pieces or not - it looks like only one piece. Even so, I think I will take your advice, Also, that backwards 'S' is weird! Why did the engraver do that, I wonder? And... [This message has been edited by outwest (edited 11-21-2005).] IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 11-20-2005 05:46 PM
PS I feel very, very, very lucky that that silversmith was here and that he does museum and auction restorations. I am planning to take a few other things over there for minor repairs; in a couple months IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 11-20-2005 06:54 PM
Eight cups = 2 quarts*, so yes, it was deliberate. Hollow handles are either of two halves soldered together, or cast in one piece. And the handle is soldered to the body of the pitcher - that you cannot detect any solder is an indication of the quality of the manufacture, and of the fact that silver solder was used, and not lower quality lead solder, which would be more visible. Email me your address and I will photocopy the entire Kinsey section and mail it to you. *You beat me to the correction [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 11-20-2005).] IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 11-20-2005 07:41 PM
Eight cups = 2 quarts. Email on the way. Thank you! IP: Logged |
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doc Posts: 728 |
posted 11-20-2005 07:55 PM
A lovely piece-thank you for sharing the before and afters. As for hard cider, there are some English hard cider products available at liquor stores, and while they may not be as tasty as homemade hard ciders, they may be a good substitute for your first year of usage. Hopefully, it's OK to mention product names, since we're not talking about silver here-Woodchuck Cider is my personal favorite. IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 11-21-2005 12:14 AM
Woodchuck Cider? I am a bit concerned I won't be able to find any Hard Cider here, but I will look out for that. I plan to go and try to find some in the next few days. IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 11-21-2005 09:43 AM
As I noted above, Woodchuck Cider is a Vermont product; it's nationally distributed, and they make several varieties (including a Granny Smith, my favorite). Look for it wherever there's a good beer selection. It's carbonated, so to be 'authentic' it should sit open to lose most of the fizz. The English cider most known here is Woodpecker. Again as noted above, there are also French and Spanish ciders sometimes available here. Personally I like the Asturian ciders best. IP: Logged |
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hello Posts: 200 |
posted 11-21-2005 10:37 PM
I would just like to say that this is definately one of the most interesting pieces I have personally come across. And not just b/c of what it is, but b.c of the man behind it! Imagine, fighting your way to fight a fire! I hope you have it appraised and insured! It is certainly irreplaceable! IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 11-21-2005 11:27 PM
I was initially inquiring because I wanted to fix it and I didn't want to do anything wrong. Now I am wondering if I should have it appraised in light of the comments I have received here as well as what the silversmith intimated after examining it closely. I won't mention that here, but lets just say my jaw dropped. Will wonders never cease? Maybe I should do that appraisal area that I saw on this site somewhere and insure it against loss/theft. That might be a smart thing to do. I never really thought of that. On the other hand, I won't sell it so why tempt myself? My mother sold some things she will forever regret (and so will I). The money was gone in just a little while, but the things were gone forever. Since the silversmith worked on it it's even more beautiful, even if it's not flashy, and I'm proud it's mine. IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 11-22-2005 12:34 AM
I am not usually one for repairs, but I must say, this turned out quite nice. I would not hesitate to use it. Then it should display nicely. I would try to find some type of glass case or cabinet so you don't have to polish it too much. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 11-22-2005 02:13 AM
Another book that you may enjoy is "Marks of Achievement: Four Centuries of American Presentation Silver" by David B. Warren, Katherine S. Howe and Michael K. Brown. Reference is made in this book to a presentation pitcher made by Edward Kinsey that was presented in 1842 to Dr. James M Brush by the students of his Kentucky anatomical class. The footnote for this reference cites William Barrow Floyd, "Kentucky Coin-Silver Pitchers," The Magazine Antiques, vol. 105 (March 1974), pp576-80. The introduction to this book is by Gerald W. R. Ward and is instructive and fascinating. Mr. Ward lists various reasons why presentation silver was created. He has the obvious ones such as to commemorate, to satisfy altruistic impulses, to motivate, to perpetuate existing class and social relationships and to compensate. Mr. Ward suggests three other reasons that perhaps have a darker side to them. They are to influence, to enhance the reputation of the donor, and to enhance the reputation of the maker. It would be interesting to see if Mr. Kinsey engraved his name on the Kentucky piece. If anyone has a copy of the Floyd article in The Magazine Antiques we may find out. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 11-22-2005 11:59 AM
I did not want to infer by the above post that the purpose of the presentation pitcher was to enhance the reputation of the maker Mr. Kinsey Here it seems evident that the Independent Fire and Hose Company No. 3 wanted to honor Mr. Miles Greenwood with a beautiful pitcher. It is interesting that the engraved No. 3 is every bit as large as Mr. Greenwood's name, but it is not unusual for the donor to hope for some reflected glory when making the presentation. It is common for presentation cups given to grandchildren by their grandparents to have the grandparents name engraved in the same or larger font size than the recipient. The addition of Mr. Kinsey's name on the outside surface together with the simple word "maker" I think complements the feeling that Mr. Greenwood was respected and worthy of such a fine pitcher. By 1844 Mr. Kinsey was a well established and respected silversmith in Cincinnati and his name would have enhanced the quality of the presentation. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 11-22-2005 02:02 PM
I do not have a copy of the atricle that ahwt refers to, but David Warren, in another article (Southern Antiques, in Antiques, March 1971) shows a similar Kentucky pitcher marked both by John B. Aiken, a Danville, KY silversmith and Peter Krider, a philadelphia maker, who, as Warren remarks, had a flourishing Kentucky trade. While this pitcher is dated c1859, is is possible that importation of Eastern silver had begun by 1844, and Kinsey was using his signature as maker to denote that this product was his own, and was therefore using it as a form of word-of-mouth advertising for similar custom assignments. IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 11-23-2005 12:00 AM
Maybe. Does anyone have the listing for the Ohio Mechanics Institute? I am thinking Kinsey might have been a member. That could also be why his name was there (Greenwood was a President and founding member/donor for that). Kinsey was probably a res-pected silversmith by that time and Greenwood was an important city man. They probably knew each other. Or, maybe Kinsey put it there, as you say, for others to see when they admired it. Of course, for all I know he could have put his name on every one of these he made. I wonder if the one owned by the Cincinnati Art Museum (it is slightly different) had his name on it? IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 11-27-2005 09:56 PM
So how did it go? Did you serve cider in your beautiful pitcher? Did your relatives admit you were right to love it? Did you take photos of the pitcher posing next to the turkey? Thirsty minds want to know! IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 11-28-2005 12:53 AM
I wimped out! I just started to think that maybe the children who were coming might want to pour from it and then I started worrying about it. I didn't want any mishaps. So, an hour before guests came I ran to the store for some flowers to put in it. It made a beautiful center piece and a terrific conversation piece. Everyone thought it looked great. My Mother in Law in particular wanted to know the whole story. Thanks for asking. Outwest (the wimp) IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 01-28-2006 01:21 AM
Our library has a copy of the March 1974 issue of Antiques Magazine with the article of Kentucky coin-silver pitchers. Outwest, two pitchers are shown that appear to be identical to your pitcher. The first shown is marked on the bottom with the mark of William P. Poindexter and inscribed on the front EMW (for Elisha and Maria Warfield). Mr. Poindexter's working dates are given as 1820-1859 and he was from Lexington, KY. The second pitcher is marked twice on the bottom E. Kinsey, each with an eagle. It is inscribed "Presented to Dr. Jas. M. Bush by his Anatomical class Feb 22d. 1842". The height of the Poindexter pitcher is given as 12 14/16" and the Kinsey pitcher as 13". It is curious as to why they said 14/16" as opposed to 7/8", but I am just repeating what was written. It would be interesting to see if your pitcher was about the same size. I suspect that your library may have copies also and it is an article worth having. This is also a good indication that Kinsey was selling articles to Poindexter. In another section of this issue Kentucky furniture was discussed. The author of this article indicates that the sugar chests appeared almost exclusively in Kentucky, "although other collectors reported a few that strayed into Tennessee." This is nonsense as Tennessee cabinet makers crafted many a beautiful sugar chest. IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 01-28-2006 12:50 PM
Thanks, it does sound like an article I'd like to read. I measured my pitcher and it is just a hair over 13 1/2 inches at the highest point. Why would they all be slightly different heights? I wonder if the pitcher in the article you read is the same pitcher that is in the Cincinnati Silversmith's book or a different one? The article and the book are both from the same decade. There is a picture of the markings in the book which include an eagle stamp. Mine is stamped once inside with his name and engraved with the name once on the outside bottom rim, but there are no other stamps. I am going to try today and read a copy of that article. I am not sure our local libraries will have it, though. Is the handle decoration the same? The Cincinnati Art Museum very kindly sent me a postcard of a similar shaped pitcher with a different handle decoration by Kinsey. Personally, I don't care if there are hundreds of pitchers out there. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-28-2006 01:31 PM
Outwest, it doesn't matter how many there are, since each is handmade, and therefore unique in its own way. If all were exactly the same, they wouldn't be handmade. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 01-28-2006 01:48 PM
The one pictured in Beckman's book is the same design. As swarter indicated none will be exactly alike since they were hand made. I think the reason Kinsey was successful in selling this design is that it really is a classic in design. I suspect Kinsey was very proud of his work and that most likely is why he signed your pitcher. If you cannot find a copy of the Antiques Magazine's article I will be glad to send one. [This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 01-28-2006).] IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 01-28-2006 02:43 PM
Frequently, there were style books put out for the various trades. These showed examples of current and historic design. The pitcher here is a type made from Roman times down into the present. The style book would have showed the smith the general outlines of the piece. With some information on proportions. Beyond that, it was up to him. Which is why these vary all over the place. IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 01-29-2006 12:56 PM
Now, how did you stumble across such an obscure article? My local library didn't have it (it's in the County library system - need I say more). They also don't have a real research librarian so some kind, but ignorant, high school student was trying to help me. Then I decided to call a neighboring cities library which is city owned. They had the issues and a research librarian. Down in the bowels of the library through two locked doors in an obscure corner behind racks of dust were cases and cases of old microfilm. After trying two nonworking microfilm readers I had to wait for a lady doing geneology research. She took pity on me since I knew exactly what I was looking for. The pitcher attributed to Kinsey in the photo seems somewhat squattier. The basic form is exactly the same as is the one above it attributed to Poindexter, but the proportions are a little different somehow. The neck on mine seems longer or the angles are a bit different. Something seems different about the foot, too. Examine the area just below the bowl. The handle on mine seems a tighter S curve (the negative space is different) with a round circle at the place where it attaches to the pitcher. The ones in the photos lack that extra circle. Mine seems proportioned like the Poindexter pitcher. Maybe Kinsey copied Poindexter or visa versa. Or maybe Kinsey made the Poindexter pitcher. Facinating stuff! They are the same pitcher, but they are very slightly different. They seem balanced differently. They say in the article that Kinsey worked in Kentucky from 1834-36 then to Cincinnati, but the engraving on the Kinsey pitcher in the photo was dated 1942. So, did it sit around there for 6 years in Kentucky? What do you think of the proportions (can you see any differences)? Poindexter pitcher: magazine Kinsey pitcher: My pitcher: IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 02-06-2006 01:47 PM
In the book "Team of Rivals" Doris Kearns Goodwin describes the ceremony on May 2, 1845 where Salmon Chase is presented a beautifully engraved sterling silver pitcher from "the colored people of Cincinnati" by the Rev. A. J. Gordon. Chase was elected Governor of Ohio in 1855 and later became Abraham Lincoln's Secretary of the Treasury. He also helped to establish a national banking system and an interesting innovation of his at that time was the employment of women clerks. He and Lincoln had a falling out in early 1864, but by December 1864 Lincoln again called on Salmon to serve the country, this time a Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. I suspect the sterling silver pitcher was really a coin silver pitcher and may have been made by Kinsey. It would be interesting to know where this pitcher is today. IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 04-10-2013 02:46 AM
Hi! I thought I would dredge up this thread because this pitcher is going to be in a new book about Ohio/Cincinnati silver that The Cincinnati Art Museum curator of decorative arts has written. They contacted me after 7 years and asked about it. They had beautiful pictures taken of it. The museum is going to have an exhibit of cincinnati silver to go along with the book in summer of 2014. I thought you would like to know there is a new book coming out, too. [This message has been edited by outwest (edited 04-10-2013).] IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 04-10-2013 01:52 PM
Very nice. Thanks for the update. IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 01-09-2016 01:51 AM
quote: Here is a link to the book:Cincinnati Silver: 1788-1940 IP: Logged |
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