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 American Silver before sterling
 Is this ladle American?
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| Author | Topic: Is this ladle American? |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 08-27-2006 09:52 AM
  
This ladle came from an estate sale of a Loyalist family, the style is typical for the second third of the 18th century (if American maybe also a bit later) and only marked with the mastermark WH. There is no match in English, Irish or Scottish marks, which in any event would be found in the bowl and not on the backside of it. I appreciate your help.
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-27-2006 09:58 AM
Do you know the name of the family? IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 08-27-2006 10:09 AM
It came from the estate of Judge Maxwell Strange, Kingston, Ontario, Canada. The sale was 1995. A lot of other items were American. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-27-2006 11:04 AM
If it is indeed American, it would have come down on his mother's side (if not bought in second hand). His father's line were Scots merchants that emigrated to Kingston (via New York) around 1820. His mother's line has strong connections to the Mather, Watrous, Lord, and Ely families in the Lyme CT region and the Edwards, Perkins, and Dodge families of Essex County MA, both lines going back to the 17th century. There does not seem to be any true Loyalist impulses here; this branch of the tree does not begin moving toward New York and Canada until around 1808. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-27-2006 11:06 AM
Is that a crest on the shaft? IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 08-27-2006 11:59 AM
Wev, These are amazing informations, thank you so much.May I ask the source? I guess every Kingston family of American origin is called "Loyalist", even if..... yes, there is a crest, made a photo, which I attach. I have another item from this sale, an Irish provincial sauce boat, which has the same crest. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-27-2006 01:50 PM
The family line is fairly well deliniated on Rootsweb and in the LDS database. I only did a quick search; I can't speak to the researcher's sources. [This message has been edited by wev (edited 09-04-2018).] IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 08-27-2006 05:55 PM
Dorothea, would you mind posting photos of the crest and the mark or marks on your sauceboat? IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 08-28-2006 08:50 AM
I attach photos of the Irish provincial sauce boat, its crest and marks. It is made ca.1791 in Cork by John Warner and marked with IW and Sterling, very deep nice marks.Also note the somewhat elongated form of this sauce boat. Due to reflections a bit tricky to photograph. But please note, my question was for the WH mark of the ladle - the WH is very distinctive, I just do not have the definite books, like for instance P.Kane, etc. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 08-28-2006 02:31 PM
Yes, with the extended serifs, the mark certainly is distinctive. I do not find it among the published marks of the usual suspects, but many of these are drawn and not particularly accurate. It looks quite small on the bottom of the ladle bowl, as is the mark of William Hanay of Paisley, but the example I have lacks serifs. I assume the handle is wood and not whalebone? I asked to see the sauceboat to see if the crests were related - there are many demi-lions and their variants. These appear to be the same crest, but not by the same hand. Also realize that there was the possibility of an American origin, since the "STERLING" mark was used in Baltimore before the advent of the assay office. I will have to get back to you on these points, but wanted you to know why I asked. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 09-01-2006).] IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 08-28-2006 08:13 PM
Swarter, The sauce boat marks are definitely established. When Ida Delamer (foremost scholar of Irish hallmarks) was speaking to the Silver Society of Canada she saw the piece and was very sure that it is John Warner, Cork. By the way she also mentioned that she likes the old Jackson re Ireland better than the modern Pickford version. I have other Irish and Scottish provincial pieces and have done lots of studying re these unusual marks. Over the years I have done research on the ladle marks( on and off), and really could not find a match in English, Irish or Scottish. Is William Hollingshead, Philadelphia a possibility??- the mark WH might look small but is on a par in size with other contemporary marks. I want to thank you for your interest and your remarks.
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 09-01-2006 01:19 AM
Sorry for the delay in responding, but Salonella doesn't allow for much coherent thinking; I am now (hopefully) back among the living. I am afraid this ladle may remain unattributed for a while longer, although a clearer photo of the mark might help to clarify several details. There are a great many WH marks, and others may have turned up since the sources I have had been published - Winterthur might be able to help in this regard. Hollingshead however, as far as I am aware, has only script (or script-like) marks - I have not seen a confirmed mark with Roman capitals. One of his marks can be seen here, and I can provide another example if you need to see one. Is there some particular clue or reason that that might have led you to consider him as a possibility? Early American ladles of this type certainly have been found, but, at least in my experience, there are not many of them around, and not many have been published. Most examples encountered today are not American, but that is not to say that it is beyond possibility that yours could be American. As to why I asked to see the sauceboat crest and mark - if the two pieces could have been tied together by either, it might have provided an indication of a common geographical source, but apparently not. Also, I have checked the crests against my revised Fairbains, as you may have done (I think, however, from what you wrote in another post that you might have the original), and have not been able to find any exact matches to the names listed above by wev, but if either or both descended in any of those families, they could have come with someone who married into one of them. Provincial silver is constantly being confused with American by Americans - perhaps less so the other way - so a student of American silver must have some knowledge of Provincial silver to avoid making misidentifications (I keep a number of examples myself for reference). So please understand that I wasn't questioning your knowledge of provincial silver, which is almost certainly greater than mine, but misattribution is a possibility we must always consider since there is so much confusion with American silver, and the use of the similar Sterling stamp in Baltimore ostensibly in imitation of the Irish provincial practice has been a particularly misleading one. Anyway, I couldn't make a TW out of the worn IW, so we can confidently rule out Thomas Warner as a possibile spoiler(any relation, I wonder?)! I was interested to see the comment about Pickford's Irish section being less reliable than Jackson's, as I seem to recall that it was stated in the book that that section was the only one from Jackson's last that had NOT been revised! Langdon had written a book (privately published, I think), which I do not have and have never seen, about Loyalist silversmiths who fled to Canada and worked there; it could have something useful. I have couple of his other books and do not find a similar mark in them, though. None of this is much help, unfortunately, but you still have a couple of fine examples of the forms. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 09-01-2006).] IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 09-01-2006 01:26 PM
Thanks a lot for your extensive answer. As you mentioned William Hannay, I found a pair of sugartongs in my collection and attach a picture of the mark. In Ontario/Canada it used to be so easy to find silver with Scottish provincial marks and Irish provincial marks because of the large number of Scottish/Irish immigrants. Now to find something is far and in between. Or maybe after 40 years of collecting a) one gets lazy and b)not everything is immediately interesting. Re WH ladle maybe one should not give up hope - so I attach a better photo from the mark. Thanks for your tip re Langdon,according to the librarian of the Royal Ontario Museum the pre-publication title was "Loyalist silversmiths in NA" and later on published as "American silversmiths in British NA" 1970, the ROM has several copies, so next week I will check this out. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 09-01-2006 01:54 PM
Even 10-15 years ago, when I had more regular occasion to be in Ontario (and Montreal), I could always count on finding several interesting pieces even at reasonable prices. Any more, not so much. One does become both more jaded and more selective over the years, but I think it is true everywhere that there's less and less to be found. For a real scare, think about how in 20 years we'll be thinking of now as a sort of golden age! IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 09-01-2006 03:06 PM
Maybe in 20 years our estates come up for sale and other collectors will have a bonanza! ------------------ IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 09-01-2006 06:08 PM
quote:True, but think of how much more is available now! Dorothea, thanks for the additional photo of the ladle mark. It certainly is distinctive and is unfamiliar to me. I took the liberty of tweaking the image a bit for added clarity - I must say it is certainly crude, as is Hanay's (which latter may be due to its small size). How does your mark compare in size to Hanay's, which is roughly 1.5 X 2.5 mm? Such crudity could indicate that the punch was cut by the smith himself (or by an apprentice or journeyman), possibly in an area where there was no professional die maker - a small town, rural, or provincial locale, and not an industrialized urban area. IP: Logged |
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Paul Lemieux Posts: 1792 |
posted 09-01-2006 08:49 PM
Well, this is a shot in the dark that probably won't hit anything, but I have seen similarly crude maker's stamps with pronounced serifs on Chinese Export silver. I don't suppose that's even a remote possibility in this case? IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 09-01-2006 08:54 PM
As a typographer, I am a little uneasy with the term crude; stylized, individualistic, perhaps, but not crude. Not that I can put a name to the mark, but I find it rather attractive. As for the ladle as a whole, it compares favorably with the similar example by Boyer on display (though mis-labeled, last time I visited) at the Huntington Library. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 09-01-2006 10:39 PM
When I said crude, I was referring to the execution - particularly of the serifs - and not the style. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 09-02-2006 12:42 AM
The book “Worldly Goods – The Arts of Early Pennsylvania, 1680-1758” shows a similar ladle in a grouping on the page opposite the title page and again on page 197. This ladle is attributed to Philip Sang, Jr. c. 1740-50. The pictures are quite small and do not show the reverse side of the ladle, but the styles are very much alike. Philip Syng, Jr and his father were from Ireland. Was this design (the two pronged ending into the bowl) originated in Ireland? Both William Holmes Sr. and Jr. have marks shown in Kane that bear some resemblance to your mark; but I suppose you have already dismissed these marks. IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 09-02-2006 05:59 AM
 now this is crude. I have no idea who this is. They must have had the DT's or very little skill. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 09-02-2006 10:26 AM
This last one looks like it might be either an over strike or a partially plugged die. As for the split shank, it may be necessary to resist torque and/or impact forces acting on wide ladle bowls. Here is another example (from an earlier thread) - this one a 10 1/2" punch ladle from Philadelphia by John Owen, Jr., w. 1804-31, with two pouring lips.
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 09-02-2006 10:44 AM
Thanks for all the interesting answers. The WH mark is 2.5 x 3.0 mm. Chinese export is a good thought, but I would rule it out - A) because there is only Wang Hing and this mark mostly comes in combination with 90 and as far as I remember is found on late 19th century typical Chinese looking pieces - but I have only the Forbes book as reference. B) all Chinese export flatware I have seen is very heavy - not that the WH ladle is exactly flimsy, but does not have this extra weight. Re William Holmes sen. and jr. - I am very interested in this lead. I do not have P.Kane's book, would a picture of the two marks be possible? Actually the WH ladle looks like a copy of a typical London made one of the period. Picture shows a London made ladle 1746 by David Henell (lighter shaft) Note:the cast arrangement of handle attachment. A Scottish provincial ladle would look fairly plein The plein nautilus shaped ladle is London ca.1740 probably by Benj.Godfrey, and the engraved one fully marked for London 1748, Francis Spilsbury maker. I have also a beautiful Irish ladle (pride of possession) with a GM STARLING GM mark for Limerick ca. 1765 by George Moore (1760-1785),I do not attach a picture because I fear you all will get ladle fatique and it will be seen as ladle over kill. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 09-02-2006 11:03 AM
The attachment form is known as a socket and bifurcated bracket. Here is a c 1760 example by Ebenezer Austin of Hartford (Hammerslough collection) Here are two marks (of the 15+ now attributed to them), used by both Homes senior and junior: and one for William Hookey, which also has points of similarity: IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 09-02-2006 12:25 PM
Thanks a lot. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 09-02-2006 04:18 PM
Since the mark on the ladle is not unusually small, size cannot be blamed for the irregularities. Inexperience, wrong tools, bad eyesight, take your pick, but definately not by a prefessional die sinker! See the thread on Sarah's Spoon for an example of the difficulties involved in the identification of these WH marks. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 09-02-2006).] IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 09-03-2006 03:17 PM
Below are the initial marks for Homes Jr. from Patricia E. Kane's book "Colonial Massachusetts Silversmiths and Jewelers": And the initial marks for Homes Sr. from Kane's book: You may be the best judge as to whether any of these marks match the mark on your ladle. Ms. Kane is the Curator of the American Decorative Arts at the Yale University Art Gallery and I am sure would like to be informed if you think one of the Homes made your ladle. Also I would love to see your Irish ladle. One can never have too many pictures of beautiful silver ladles. IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 09-03-2006 06:26 PM
Ahwt, thank you so much for posting all the William Homes marks, I have printed them out and will study it carefully, right now I think "F" is best - I know Patricia Kane and will write her an email about this ladle. The pictures of the Limerick ladle I have posted a few minutes ago in the British/Irish/ Forum as this seemed more appropriate. Thank YOU so much, and an appreciative thank you to all members who have helped in this thread. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 09-03-2006 06:53 PM
Keeps us posted on her response. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 09-03-2006 07:05 PM
In the intrests of being accurate (and not picky), please note that in nearly all of the Homes marks, including F, the right slanting elements of the W are slender, and the left slanting elements are broad; in the ladle mark both pairs of elements are the same width - slender. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 09-04-2006 07:58 AM
What is a "plein" nautilus? I know that nautilus is a seashell, although I always thought that they were somewhat flat and not elongated as in your beautiful ladles. Have these types always been called plein nautilus ladles? IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 09-04-2006 08:20 AM
Sorry, ahwt, my mistake - and an orthographic one , meant to write plain as opposed to the other ladle shown, which is engraved. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 03-14-2007 12:21 PM
quote: In reviewing past threads, I noticed I failed in my duty as a biologist to point out that ahwt is correct - this shell is not a Nautilus, which is a mollusc somewhat related to the extinct Ammonites and other Cephalopods, while the shell represented is similar to that of a whelk, which is a type of snail, or Gastropod, and not a Cephalopod. None of this of course detracts from the quality of the ladle whatsoever. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 12-29-2011).] IP: Logged |
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